Kill,
You fail to realise that JB is not as much an airline as it is a religion. You can't argue with a person about faith, they know what they know. As far as the negative affects on the piloting profession as a whole, welcome to the 21st century of aviation, "As long as I get a quick upgrade, I'll worry about getting paid (properly) later, anyway, as long as there are open trips to fly, I can wh**e myself to a decent pay check".:eek:
These guy's are sooo dumb they really think they have a contract:D

No, there's a difference between blind faith and trust, though there are some similarities. I imagine they look the same from the outside though. Trust can be easily broken, while it's possible never to break someone's faith. The thing here is that trust has not been broken, not yet, maybe never. And until it is, I'm afraid you boys aren't going to have the adversarial relationship you seem so eager for.

And Bill, for someone who has posted his last post, you sure are vocal.

now thats funny!!! continental had been the joke of the legacies up until 4 years ago and now he's knocking us??????????????LMAO
maybe killbill has been taking it up the a## for sooooo long (its CO pilots history) his DEMENTIA is getting the best of him........

your lack of knowledge is staggering. i guess that's why you work for 2/3's and like it.

its YOUR history, not ours............:D :D

Clams vs shrimp
 

You guy's are just like politicians. Respond to the challenge, not deflect it with sarcasm. KillBill is talking about your pay and benefits. He and everyone on this forum is aware of the (past and present) problems at CAL. Why don't you address the points he makes about your pay and work rules instead of mocking his?? I suspect the reason is you don't have an answer or defence for your situation at JB. Understandably the fact that your company is growing and hiring is laudable, no one here denies that. The fact that they (currently) treat you well is not something to be sniffed at. On the other hand, you are paid less than even reduced legacy airline rates and you lack all but the most basic of retirement plans. We don't ever know about your medical or other "soft" benefits, but can surmise, your not leading the industry in that area either.:rolleyes:
Address the comments about your companies attempt to exempt its self from FAR's regarding flight time limits. Ive read the memo's your management has issued regarding trans con turns and how its trying to spin this into something that is good for mitigating pilot fatigue. It would be funny if the repercussions were not so serious for the rest of us. I'm not suggesting JB pilots universally support raising the 8 hour limit, but many of you do, and for reasons, related, I'm sure, to commuting to work.
If JB wants to take on the world with superior service and in flight TV, have at it; Legacy pilots might grumble, but those issues are related to marketing and strategic planning. If your bosses build and sell a better mouse trap, than it's up to the competition to respond as necessary. But when you, the pilots, are a major part of the economic advantage that your company uses to win market share than we all wind up in a death spiral of decreasing pay and QOL in a profession that (has been) often the envy of others.
I'v made a point that your lack of a collective bargained contract leaves you at the mercy of your managements "good faith" to do the right thing. Certainly regarding the best interests of the customers and owners of JB they have done right. The growth and vision thing, I'm sure is a breath of fresh air for many a JB pilot, compared to the carrier they came from. That said, you lack any control of your destiny, less the threat to unionise in the future. Having personally been down that road, I can assure you your management will not be intimated or impressed by either your willingness to not organise or the threat that you might. They will deal with you on what ever playing field they are obliged to play (with you) on. You, on the other hand leave your total destiny in their hands. Based on what we can see (pay rates, A, B plan, T-con) you are not serving yourselves well by sitting on the sidelines, let alone us (which by the way, we know you don't give a rats a** about, and that's OK) :p

Translation: we know better than you what's in your best interests.

You prove my point. You can't respond to a comment/question/challange.:D

Oh? Are you sure? :D

DC, I want to thank you for a coherent and reasonably balanced post that actually addresses what we're trying to discuss. That's been lacking on this thread. From both sides at times. I did get my hackles up when you said "you guy's [sic] are just like politicians" though, as I've become frustrated with the response to every thoughtful and well-intentioned post from the JB side being "your pay is too low and you have 5 year contracts. Unionize." or even better, the "you're scientologists" "you suck" "seek help." From where I sit, you guys (your previous post excepted) have made the same point over and over and over again, which is basically that we're being screwed over (pay, benefits, contract) and we don't know what we're talking about. That's not a debate, that's nyah nyah nyah nyah nyaah nyaah.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong, but the real issue here is not that you're concerned that we're getting screwed over, it's that you're concerned that you're getting screwed over because of us somehow. Which, like dancing around the union question, I wish people would just come out and say rather than tip-toeing and talking in code. At least then it's clear what we're arguing about.

I plan to respond to what you said in your post, but I'm going to close this one out now because it's getting too long.