RedeyeAV8r

Try doing a week of night hub-turns like the folks at FDX or UPS or Airborne..............................
after six months of that you won't want the any FAR extension waivers.

Or fly around the world (Literally in one direction) in 6 days........................

Does wonders for the aging process..................

dckozak

If domestic duty times can be reined in (13 hrs vs current 16 hrs) and consideration for time of day and number of legs; than I would support considering increases in domestic flight times. But it should be a charge of law, not some carriers exemption, so its fair and transparent to all. Given the lack of consideration the current rules have for time of day (when duty starts or ends) or the number of legs flown, I think the EU is on to a genuine improvement in rest and duty limits for domestic ops.

Packer Backer

So when the hell does rest begin? We all know it's b.s. that is starts 15 min's after block in at some carriers. It's not just about duty, but about actual rest. 10 hours rest should be the minimum. Followed by a reduction in the max duty day to 12 hours. But there is no real reason why 8 hours needs to be expanded except for reasons of cost. And cost should never be a factor when it comes to saftey. So the blue nuts can't do a east-west turn. Boo hoo. If the blue nuts were based in St. Louis they could. But now, because of the blue nuts, that AA or UA ORD crew will have to do a LAX turn followed by a leg to DC. But I guess nothing that the blue nuts does affects the rest of us.

B6Guy

RedeyeAV8r: The testing and possible exemption is for daytime, normal wake-period flying. We are hoping to reduce the number of redeyes following day-rests.

Packer Backer, where did anyone say anything about three legs?? Our testing and possible exemption request will be for very specific TWO-LEG flights. Like JFK-LAS-JFK I described. NO Three or more leg flights over current flight/duty rules.

What is wrong with having a day with more flight time, only two legs, within a regular duty day, or shorter duty day??? I guess you don't see the advantages, you do work by the hour right?? And you do like being home with the wife/family right? So why not get more productive trips??

I'm sure you don't bid for pairings that have the LEAST flight/credit per day, do you?? I'm sure you bid for the most flight/cridit per day as long as the pairing doesn't have your personal avoid-cities or other preferences. Unless you like being on the road, staying in hotels.?

When I'm at work I want to work to the max and get back home. I work so I can have the home/life I have, not visa-versa.

Again, the exemption may never get filed, I fear it is still-born.

B6Guy

crewdawg52

All JB has to do is put another pilot onboard. Then they can go back and forth as much as they want......

RedeyeAV8r

B6

The problem is this could open up Pandora's Box.
I understand that you would rather fly 8+ block hours per day if it gave you 1 or 2 more days off per month.

The problem is you need to be a forward thinker and think Outside the box.

Don't look at trips as they are currently built and try to apply the rules............ That can be a fatal mistake. Once a new rule is put into place, the company Scheduling software will maxmize the productivity to the extent possible. This doesn't always mean flying hard time.

You could potentially be on a layover in Houston....fly to JFK and then turn to OAK......blocking, for example, 8:13. Then you could layover for 28 hours and fly the Red-eye back to JFK........Now this becaomes a 3 or 4 day trip instead of an Out/back and what have you gained as a Pilot except you are now flying a longer day than is currently legal.

What if you guys get an OAK base...........your system form could change.
Would you like to fly a JFK out/back from OAK leaving at 11:00pm OAK time?

I already know the answer as FDX does this kind of flying.(although we can't and don't want to fly over 8 block hours)....take it from me it sux!

There is a major downside if you really look to the future. Remember the your company MGT(all of our MGTs included) do not have your quality of life at the top of their wish list. Their job is to maxmize productivity and stock prices.............

Hope this helps clear up why many of us are against any waiver............
It is the camels nose under the tent....................

If JB is allowed to do it.....others will follow

B6Guy

Yet again, the testing was done for daytime, normal wake periods, NOT 11pm redeye turns. NORMAL AWAKE periods. Like for me living in EST 0600-2300 EST. The possible exemption would have wording spelling this out.

There is only so much money for the flight deck, add another pilot and divide the money three ways and it defeats the reason that some of the pilots like this idea: make more money in fewer days SAFELY without resorting to the mind-numbing day-rests followed by redeyes which are UNSAFE. Or even worse the multiple-leg redeyes, they really hurt.

When I flew as an IRO in a heavy crew, it was ridiculous: you cannot 'rest' sitting in a seat with the paying customers, and you cannot 'rest' sitting in the cockpit jumpseat. The 'IRO' deal is a joke from my experience, especially if we are talking about only an extra hour or two. It is an FAA 'exercise' to look like it is safer, in reality it is not. The ICAO-ruled flights were easy.

I understand the 'Pandora's Box' syndrom, but if our exemption [if it ever happens] spells out the specific time periods when it is valid, then if some other company wants to extend it further then that company is going to have to do the very expensive testing and documentation like we did. I don't see that happening.

I really think all of this moot, there are much more important issues in front of us right now for our management to spend the money and effort to go forward with this proposal.

BTW: RedeyeAV8r, thank you for the civil comments and discussion, it is refreshing to see this thread not turn into a name-calling JB-bashing thread.

B6Guy

dckozak

1. Either change the law for all or none.
2. Consider start times of the duty day and when it finishes.
3. Limit the length of the duty day based on time of day (See above) and number of legs.
4. Ensure that operational limits aren't so generous that unrealistic scheduling can be allowed to end run the intent of the (scheduled) limits.
5. Minimum rest periods must allow a honest 8 hours in the rack.

UGBSM

I fly as an International relief pilot and even a short rest of an hour or two is a tremendous help with crew rest. Of course you need an appropriate crew rest area, or seat. One that lies flat, or nearly so, and has privacy curtains. I imagine that expense plus the third pilot makes it not worthwhile for anyone's transcon turns, not just jetBlue's.