Keep your day job. Go to a flight school and get a private/instrument>15K. Buy a small plane >15-20K. Fly the pizz out of it to get 250>10-15K. Go back to flight school and get a commercial CFI. Sell the Plane >+15K. Instruct full or part time. Go to airline of your choice in less then five years and no 125K debt.

You obviously didn't read the attached article regarding pilot training background and training success.

Worked for me. Bought a Piper Colt at 16 and then started getting into various partnerships, fix 'r uppers and flips through the multi-inst., commercial. Actually made money by the time the airplane flips offset the training cost.

The general aviation market is doing OK right now. Plenty of opportunities to find unloved airplanes, make them nice and sell them at retail. Easier to do than buying & selling cars or real estate. The folks you meet will be friends for life and make a solid network.

IMHO this program isn't terrible, but it is not a good value for the "benefit" of skipping an interview. If you have a lot of cash and just want to build time you could always volunteer for Angelflight, a relief or missionary organization and write off the donation. I used to do some of that flying in my Bonanza. It was rewarding on a personal level and a plus in my subsequent airline interviews.

JetBlue may find itself as a "stepping stone" ... it is a good airline, but not the kind of airline career some seek.

I saved the kid about 80K, saved his day job and qualified him for his dream job in 5 yrs. He will do fine in training.
Along the way he learn about aircraft, maintenance, purchasing, mechanics and airport managers.
He will be the captain making the calls while learning about his aircraft limits and his own limitations. Flying that ugly Piper or Cessna from Keywest to Fairbanks he will have to learn about weather systems and long-range forecasts all while Mr Darwin looks over his shoulder.
No it's not a pretty structured chalk and talk procedures training ad-nasuem environment. Just another way of achieving ones goals with a little adventure along the way. Some might even call it character building.

Do u pay $125k?

Or do you have a training contract valued at $125k?

if u have to pay DEFINITELY not worth it...the pilot shortage has just started in severity...Delta and UAL are already studying ab-initio...u won't have to pay anything in a few years...

Thanks for the responses all, and apologies to the one person who called me a troll for not responding in less than 24 hours on a weekend. :rolleyes: (I guess I faked the whole email posted too?)

The FAA medical is a good idea. My USN medical DQ had to do with a years old leg injury, nothing that I assume would really affect the FAA exam, but good to get out of the way.

To be honest, I am leaning towards no on this, even though I think I will take the assessment. I just have too much going career/life wise to start over at square zero for this. If I were 23-24 again, that might be a different story.

I do respect the piloting profession a lot. As someone who has been successful in a different industry, the financial and professional uncertainty of the regionals are unbelievable to me, and why this program is so intriguing. Most fields realize that young talent needs to be nurtured, not treated like crap. Wall Street pays junior bankers $150k fresh out of college, even though they don't do much more than keep spreadsheets clean (seriously). However, they do this knowing that 10 years from now they will be looking to pick their management from those ranks. Longer, more defined career pipelines seem like they could have a place in aviation to attract top talent.

Also accepted into this program. I am not trolling, what would be the point?

My confusion lies with the, "You didn't spend 10 years at a regional, so you won't have the experience".

In my early days when I was trying to get my private pilots licence right out of high school. I worked as a fueler for United's contractor as I knew it was the best way into the cockpit and talk with pilots. I fueled thousands of United express ERJs and others.

I always imagined at the time these pilots had years of experience but I was surprised early on to learn most of them were put behind the controls of these planes with 250 hours or a hair above.
My point being I suppose, they didn't get replaced with more experienced pilots when the crosswinds we're gusting at 30 knots or when an engine faluire occured.

Why can't I, assuming I pass the course, be the SIC on an E190 at 1500 hours?

The devaluing of pilots may hold true, but the expirence thing throws me for a loop.

Please understand, I'm not at all trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to understand at least this aspect of the aggression towards this program.

The front office investment banking analysts on Wall Street you are referring to are treated like crap..They start at 80k base and their bonus is around 40k first year bringing their total first year pay to 120k..Keep in mind, this is for working 80-100 hours a week..These analysts are usually kids from top tier schools(HYPSW,Columbia, Cornell,etc..You get the idea) and have stellar grades..You can't compare them with pilots..Also, investment banking has a huge weeding process..Less than 5% of these analysts ever go on to become Managing Directors( where the money is at)...You just make it sound so simple, truth is, it's a very difficult career path...Being an airline pilot is a fairly easy job that you can do with average skills...Investment Banking itself is not hard, it's getting in and staying there/moving up...I have plenty of investment banking MD's in my family so I know what I'm talking about...

Every generation of pilots resents the generation after them because the had it easier than they did. The generation before us had to spend years sitting sideways as an FE before they got a seat at the controls of an airliner, and so on and so forth.

Most of us had to spend a decade or more just to get into that E190 FO seat at JetBlue. It makes us angry to see someone else come along, plop down $125k, and bypass those years of living in the trenches of the industry trying to build flight time while eating ramen noodles and living in run down crashpads.

If one is a decent pilot, they can fly any airplane at 1,500 hours..E190 is another RJ and flying an RJ is no different than flying an A380..I flew both and can even go on and tell you that the A380 was much easier to fly than an RJ..I think guys here make it a big deal because you will get to bypass the regional airlines via the jetblue program and they resent that because they want everyone to pay their dues because they had to..More of a jealousy/resentment issue than a safety issue..E190 is another RJ no different than an E170 or CRJ...

http://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcont...0&context=ntas

Read the above Pilot Source Study carefully. This is the future of airline pilot hiring in the USA.

You're correct about the resentment.

Additionally, I'm sure you could fly an ILS after just a few hours of practice, but flying the plane is just a small part of the job.

You missed my point. I have good friends/family in IB as well.

The point is that while only a small portion of new analysts will become MDs, they all have good salaries ("only $120k" - still more than double the median FAMILY income at age 22), very well defined career paths (analyst->associate->VP->MD), and great exit opportunities even if their first bank does not work out.

Meanwhile pilots looking to get into majors seems to be working at a regional for anywhere between 5-10 years (or more??), while making middling wages and hoping to one day get a call from a major. And, oh yeah, your skills are really not transferable to any other industry.

I went to a school that is just outside of the ones you listed. And the difference in career security was a major reason why I didn't look towards aviation (outside of the USN I mentioned in my initial post) until a program like this came along.

Absolutely. If military aviation hadn't been an option for me, I wouldn't have pursued professional aviation on a full time basis any more than I had upon college graduation, especially if it entailed enduring financial insolvency in my 20 and 30s, stuck under a regional-type compensation model. That's a fact. I gambled some awful putting all my eggs on the Guard/Reserve basket, and it worked out. I've busted my rear for a decade and it hasn't been perfect (divorce, crappy duty locations wrecking the living hell out of my personal life and my family's QOL), but I still acknowledge how lucky I have been to not have to pursue a regional job in order to put food on the table because that's somehow the best I could do for myself and my family.

That would just have been too high of an opportunity cost for my eventual liabilities as a future head of household and one with the desire to attain a retirement lifestyle that requires six figure household income for decades, in order to attain. To each their own. I totally understand the resentment on the part of the regional hung starters who didn't have the luxury of doing the 4 year touch 'n go the regional pay model was designed for in the first place, misplaced anger as it may be.

This program is an insult to those of us that paid dues to get to a major. Long story short boys you won't be welcomed among the pilots which will make your career miserable, but I guess if management likes you well neat

7600 TT 2100 TPIC Aviation Bachelors

Been applying to JB since 2013. Used to be my #1 airline, now just a stepping stone because I'll be pulling gear for guys 20 years younger than me because of this program. And there are plenty of guys like me who would've loved to get the call from JB.

They are paying their dues also. Just in a different way. You are just envious.

You can still get a call.
Those guys are years away from hitting the line. Now we do have a young group so if you don't like a young guy in the left seat......well

Resentment may be something to do with it. You may be able to fly the plane just fine. But when this happens...

Accident: Jetblue E190 at Nassau on Mar 25th 2016, nose gear up landing

...or something of the sort, I need someone in that cockpit of value, not just to press buttons or turn a yoke, but to offer feedback and insight on the situation.

I don't want one of you sitting next to me and not able to recall upon any true airmanship experience to get the job done.

I'm willing to bet that was the first time for the two of them to have to make a gear up landing. They had just as much experience at this as a newbie would.

This shows that you don't get it.

I agree with that statement. Getting the plane on the ground is one thing. Gear up landings don't come around too often, but it is how you handle yourself and your crew and customers that make the difference.

Handling any type of emergency requires experience, CRM, focus, etc. I can't visualize airline newbies handling this situation to well or any IROPs. Although the CA is ultimately responsible, have an experienced FO is invaluable in situations like this.

Hogwash.

If you can't spin the tenets of CRM into something useful outside of aviation then you aren't trying very hard.

This is akin to saying that the infantry(person) in the military doesn't bring any transferrable skills to the civilian world; yet *most* employers recognize that associated skills with the military are in fact highly desired. Though aviation might not be as well known, that is YOUR job when writing/polishing your resume to highlights and translate those skills into skills your targeted employer desires.

If we have a pilot group with some backbone, absolutely nothing.

Because 1500 hours is 1/3 to 1/4 the starting experience level that currently sits in JetBlue cockpits. We are a major airline, not a training ground for apprentices, and I expect the person to my right to be a fully qualified professional with a few years of decision making under his belt, not a newbie who was flying a Diamond twin last week. If ALPA doesn't manage to squash this expect to be doing a lot of walk arounds and radio calls. You'll be great at moving the gear and flap handles in no time. The 250-hour regional FO phenomenon was an anomaly in our industry which does not need to be extrapolated to the major airline level.

How is it fair to the customers that the regionals get to be training grounds? 99% of the public who flys an American Eagle/United/Delta express are totally unaware that the pilots are sub-contractors just trying to earn time so a major will pick them up. They see the tail and see the pilots on the same level as the pilots on a 777, no matter what you pay, you expect to get where your going.
So the danger/unprofessionalism (that is what I'm gathering from the posts) is acceptable there?

This would be a monumental shift for the airlines. From what I gather programs like this would hopefully eliminate the high sodium sleep deprived crashpads if the other airlines follow suit, and from what I've been reading, they are planning to. The regional pilot lifestyle could go the way of the flight engineer. Maybe that's a consequence (though possibly unintended) of programs like these.

Again, not trying to be a jerk. Trying to understand. I'm not in the aviation industry and like the other person in this thread I also have an imbeded career and I am leaning away from doing this.

Do u have to pay up front????

I was ab-initio. Most of us went right seat at about 200 or so hours. Great accident record. More dangerous flying than airlines. Hard to get into the program. No money up front. I didn't have the money to pay for my licenses...

Cliff, you weren't ab-ignitio, you were military. There's a difference.

The military uses an ab-initio training model...

Just make them wear patches on their leather jackets like nascar drivers. Put all the patches on for who sponsored your 150k. Parents, loan companies, banks, jetblue etc. If you are going to buy your way into a seat you may as well advertise who you have to thank Nothing got you into that seat aside of money and an ability to pass basic flight training requirements.

edit to add: I'm not buying your beer just because you have a $1000/month loan payment.

New York's gayest airline. Thank you for NOT flying. G7. Pretty uniforms. IROPs. Code shares (over 40 now). Lift.

So very proud!

GP

I believe you pay the $125k in 15 monthly installments. At some point I'm sure JB will have scholarships for the right type of candidates.

I agree with you actually, i honestly don't think experience will matter that will happen your first few hundred hours at the airline, however I can guarantee people will look at you differently, almost scab like, and your career will suffer for it in my opinion. Your absolutely right though the regional, majors, military, everyone is guilty of putting people with 250 hours of flight time in very complex aircraft and have turned out alright. It's the moral of whether you want to be a part of degrading what we have worked hard for.

How quickly we forget the thousands of regional pilots who PFT'd back in the day. They bought their job too.

Funny.....I must say that I still look at the females/minorities in the 47+ age range at United and can't help but think they were low-time hires. I know several there. Not necessarily fair to them...I flew with some who weren't inexperienced.

You can't teach experience. United got away with it (mostly). Jetblue? Not sure. I know I'd rather have an experienced first officer in the the right seat than someone who goes through this program. Probably fine at pushing buttons in the right order. Anything out of the ordinary? I hope it won't be a single-pilot operation.

GP

Same boat really, did not forget at all.

What you probably never get to hear about are the statistics regarding how many incidents occur at regionals. Just because a plane doesn't crash doesn't mean inexperienced/uneducated pilots aren't liabilities. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ASAP reports attributable to pilot error in the regionals. Unfortunately we only hear about the guys that die trying to reach the FL400 club or taking off on the wrong runway and killing everyone. I'm not sure that such a high rate of incidents counts as "successful". Also, keep in mind that regional pilots are in the right seat for a LONG LONG LONG time before they become Captains so they gain lots of Point A to B flight experience with the complication that come along the way.

And yes... aircraft are getting safer and safer by virtue of engineering. For example, not everyone could fly the F-14 but just about anyone can fly the F-18. Likewise, it's considerably harder to safely fly an MD-88 with steam gauges than it is to fly an EMB-190. However, the computerization of the aircraft also provides a false sense of security which allows companies to lower knowledge requirements and training requirements. The problem is they don't account for "improbable" scenarios. They design their training programmes such that if the unexpected occurs, "airmanship" (translation: the art of flying in the absence of academic study or training) will save the day. These 0-to-hero programmes do not create "airmanship" which is largely a product of self-education and luck of experiencing certain events in one's career.

This becomes a particularly troublesome issue with newer, more complex aircraft. Take the A380 for example. Easy to fly on a sunny day but a real bear when things go wrong. Remember what happened to that Quantas A380 with an uncontained engine failure? How long did it take to go through all the ECAM messages and actions? Wasn't it in the hours? The crew was successful but perhaps only because of the experience of the pilots who were quite senior, educated, and experienced. The Airbus, as advanced as it is, still requires quite a bit of knowledge to successfully deal with problems. What is going to happen when these inexperienced pilots have to fly the A3XX in Direct Law with no protections? They will have to rely on that fundamental jet experience they never got.

JetBlue, or any other airline, is not scared of inexperienced pilots because they always find a way to not be culpable. In the end, insurance mostly covers the cost of accidents. Airlines always use the party lines "we meet or exceed government standards" and "pilot error" and "they were trained".

• "we meet or exceed government standards" = 1500 is not a lot. Not to mention, the government doesn't prescribe a rigid training and performance requirement. It simply assumes that their simple requirements are enough because it has historically relied upon highly experienced civilian and military pilots. Like everything else FAA, it will require blood to make new rules for the Zero-Hour Wonders. Trust me - it will happen. Unfortunately you cannot fix blood once it is drawn. This industry learns by making mistakes.
• "pilot error": the FAA licenses a pilot and the ultimate decisions are made by the pilots and not the company. The company manages the pilots via 'operational control' but it is still the pilots who bare all of the responsibility. Most accidents are pilot error. The company will simply blame the pilots but never take responsibility for setting them up to fail. Look at Allegiant. Heck, you can even cite Southwest since they keep having questionable maintenance practices. The bottom line is that pilots ultimately act on their own and their company rarely is there to force them into a course of action when weather is down to mins, aircraft is at min fuel, and weather forecasting is less than accurate. Try to think of it like a lawyer... can a company really "defend" a pilot?
• "they were trained". Civilian training sucks. It relies on prior experience and education. Many aspects of it are tied to performance snapshots that have no sustainable translation to real world environments. It sucks but it is adequate because of the existing experience crutch they currently enjoy. Will a corporate training program spend more than it thinks it needs to train a pilot? Of course not!!!! This is a business. Most training will consist of computer based training, superficial classroom instruction, and maybe a single shot attempt in a Level D simulator. In the end, the FAA will approve anything with lipstick no matter how inadequate it truly is. If a pilot crashes a plane because he screws up a go-around and stalls, the company will not be culpable because (1) training met FAA standards, (2) the company let the pilot do it once or twice in a simulator. Therefore, training was provided and pilot error is to blame.

We are entering uncharted territory. I hope there is never a tragic incident but I guarantee you that the number of ASAP reports and violations will go up significantly.

"experience" is a very inadequate word and a blunt tool.

At 1,500 hrs, I knew my Point A to B flying very well but it wasn't until around 4000 hrs until I learned how lucky I really was. My lack of education in aeronautics could've made me a statistic in literally hundreds of cases. Just being honest... The continuing education process never ends and without a structured education system, every pilot has a different intellectual toolkit. This is a problem because in such a chaotic system, we only statistically know that an adequate level of airmanship only develops at the higher number of hours of experience.

I've no doubt that these guys can do it in 250 hrs but there will be a greatly enhanced level of risk. Since risk is not easily quantified, airlines will simply ignore this and let the cards fall where they may.

The real litmus test are the situations where we can only speculate. Would a 250 hr pilot or even 1500 hr pilot successfully have reproduced Sullengberger's landing on the Hudson? I'm learning that a lot of civil pilots hate the guy for some of his comments but I do think he is 100% right about 'experience' and the airline environment.

I will attempt to answer this...

You are not a jerk, so don't think I am for replying. I was a 250-hr wonder once upon a time (military). Remember though... Jetblue is NOT the military - not even close.

The problem is that you WILL pass the E-190 course because it is very very very basic. You will get all the gouge and will know from Day 1 exactly what to know for the test. While I do not think this is a bad thing, it is a bad thing with guys who have no other experience to fall back on. You will not have the 'experience' to know what is important and what is not. You will not even know how to learn what you need to know. For example, if you have smoke in the cabin and a confirmed fire from the inflight entertainment system, will you take an hour to go hold and run endless checklists while the fire burns you to death (Swissair Flt 111) or will you just land at LAX if you originally departed from LGB? Conversely, if you have an electrical problem that requires you to shut down every system in IMC conditions with 100' ceilings everywhere or will you carefully weigh your options? There are billions of scenarios that are not taught in Part 121 training.

JetBlue training is very good but it is not a full training program. It is a difference training program that already assumes a lot. Sure, they will take a stab at lengthening it but it will only cover what they think you need to know. They are not there to teach you Part 91, 121 rules or to teach you in depth aerodynamics or systems. The training will always be constrained by cost. They will not let you go fly the sim for fun or to practice to a level of excellence.

Again, this is not about you, per sey. I've no doubt you are the top of your class, probably built your own wind tunnel, practice flightsim daily, and recites Iron Eagle 1-4 perfectly. The problem is that once someone like you comes through the pipeline that isn't YOU but a mainstream guy, tragic things will happen and companies like JetBlue will not adequately diagnose the causes. They will do whatever they can to offload responsibility onto the pilots and the government. You will be a test case to prove we can do the same with less. And, like I said before, they will find some way to pay you less so that your generation will never make as much as the older generations.

I'm not against young people doing this. In fact, I remind people all the time that the engineers that got us to the moon were in their 20's (the pilots were in their 30's and military). It's just that the system will only do what is necessary to meet the legal standards and leave the rest on your shoulders and to luck.

ALPA - hahahahahahhahahahaaaa.. They are too busy strengthening cockpit doors. They can't even get lithium battery shipments squashed and that is a no-brainer known danger that has caused many crashes. ALPA wastes HUGE amounts of money and simply has become a self-preservation organization of its own existence. They have a monopoly and they act like it.

You can do a hell of a lot more than ALPA by:
1) writing letters to the FAA (I speak from personal experience),
2) suing the FAA or companies,
3) educating the public,
4) joining consumer advocacy groups,
5) using the mainstream media to voice your opinions.

Personally I think we need to audit ALPA and do what we can do cut our union payments in half. We're simply not getting our money's worth. There are too many people that know only aviation and only the low performance of the industry to cite as status quo. ALPA makes a few incremental changes here and there but nothing they do is revolutionary. It is evolutionary but in geologic time. ALPA should've have deep sixxed Gateway 7 a long time ago. They simply do not have a warrior mindset. Think of how effective the teachers' unions are. Think of how effective McDonald's workers were in forcing their company to pay them $15/hr with NO UNION and no organization other than social media. Those are the kind of performance standards that I expect.