The regionals put guys in the right seat with 1500 hours because they have to. They can't recruit guys with more experience because their pay is awful. We don't have a problem with recruiting experienced pilots and I don't foresee us having a problem recruiting in the future either. This program is completely unnecessary for Jetblue. It's a waste of money for the potential pilots in the program and for Jetblue.

Because they have to? Says who? If Regional pilots are woefully inexperienced (what is basically being said on this thread), then where's the outcry for public safety, as thousands of passengers fly on these flights daily?

Says the free market. They can't recruit experienced pilots because they pay peanuts. We don't. We can recruit very experienced pilots. I mentioned nothing about safety. I am saying the program is unnecessary to recruit pilots to work at Jetblue.

While this may be true today, this will not always be the case. A NYT article released today says "the number of pilots the majors are going to need in the coming years will burn through our entire work force unless there’s some sort of intervention." What will JetBlue, Spirit, and the majors do if this is the case? It's going to get really interesting. While I don't agree with the way JetBlue has handled the whole situation (keeping ALPA out of the loop), Ab Initio programs are going to happen. I am sure the majors are looking for more sustainable supplies of pilots. I wouldn't be suprised to see the majors start similar programs, the exception being an extended stop at one of the c-scale regionals along the way. Funny, most of those major airline unions would like to bring their RJ flying in house. What would their Ab Initio pipeline look like if they did? Is it a better strategy to alienate the new Ab Initio pilots or bring them into the fold as full fledged Air Line pilots? Leave it to JetBlue to choose the "contrarian" way forward. I am interested to see how this is going to play out.

I don't support alienating these guys. That's an immature strategy to try to squash this program. The pilot shortage can be solved simply by the majors negotiating reasonable contracts with their regionals and in turn those regionals paying pilots a livable wage. As far as jetblue's recruiting goes all we need to do is offer a contract that's better than the legacies and we'll have no issues.

I'd be more inclined to agree with the free market idea if airlines weren't making record profits while paying their executives 7 figure salaries. They pay low salaries because they can (our economic system encourages this), and bright-eyed pilot bought into this for a long time. Turns out it's not what they thought and now we have thousands of regional pilots trying to move to the Majors, but competition for available spots is tough - and why would Management change as they're getting cheap labor on regional routes?

As mentioned earlier, the first graduates of the program wouldn't hit the line until 2020, representing roughly 6% of the new pilots for that year. While I agree that what you're saying is true for today, what about in 5, 10 years? Honest question, but is this whole pilot shortage just some big fallacy?

For those of you that currently work at JetBlue, have any of you asked why they're doing this program? I'd be interested to hear what they say.

I agree, and thank you.

It's not about flying the airplane. It's about decision making and management of the airplane and environment. Doing those things well relies largely on experience.

Pipe

Ab initio is pay for training. Period. Don't do it.

Sure. Buuuuut....will mainline pilots be cool with reduced compensation in order for management to fix the glitch wrt their subcontractors? The answer is of course they won't. Management won't redistribute the company's profit willingly in order to do it, that's for sure.

Sounds like the new guy has all y'all check-mated on the regional FO apprenticeship angle though. The lives of your mainline customers gets gambled on most connecting flights by these regional players, and they do the exact same job as a mainline FO. Just because it's economic fact doesn't make it right. The indignation from the pay your dues seasoned regional applicants to mainline jobs is noted, but it's misplaced anger in respect to this thread. The regionals gamble a LOT when it comes to the safe outcome of their operation. They're one essential DC bus failure away from morting themselves in IMC with people on board, and we already saw what has happened when perfectly operational airplanes get crashed by incompetents who "play" airline pilot well. It is in the best interest of the mainline labor to deflect away from the notion that airplanes can be flown by inexperienced crews reliant on the MTBF of modern avionics and engine and flight control monitoring systems. The best way to do this imo? Absorb the B-scale into mainline lists and take over the flying. Otherwise management will see an opening and "regional FO" up the right seat mainline jobs. At that point the CA pay gets eroded too it's game over, because without the carrot of mainline CA pay, the entire scheme collapses at all levels. People endure the regional pay for the promise of mainline CA pay. Absent that, the entire thing is a non-starter and everybody knows it.

The military is ab initio. You don't pay for that training, other than a training commitment of time and the potential of getting killed because you are being shot at, or in most people's cases, because the airplanes are old and mx sucks on them. Still, mil folks go to the front of the line on many instances of part 121 hiring too. So, ab initio is not a synonym for PFT by default.

BA Ab-initio is a MUCH more stringent program than Gateway!


T

Solution to what? You keep saying something is broken. The only thing that is not right is the pay at the regionals for FOs but as we hire EXPERIENCED pilots those regional FOs move to the left seat. Left seat pay at some are pretty decent. Not MAJOR pay but decent. Why should you skip that over those guys with experience? You keep saying I'm ignoring something but I'm not. The experience you gain as a regional FO is important. I don't think you want to hear that. You keep saying you get the same experience at the majors. No you should have that experience BEFORE YOU GET HERE. You are putting down every regional pilot by saying you can get the same experience flying for a major after flying a 172. You have no idea what experience you get with a regional. The system isn't broken it's the pay for regional FOs that need to go up. This program needs to be shut down and it will.

And so since you work in a well compensated field you believe you should be paid the same as a new hire in aviation? So again your better than all the regional guys out there who are busting there ass everyday? Are you too good to fly the regionals because you have the money to pay 125k? I've flown with guys that have come from other places with little real experience and they were and are not very good pilots. Yes they shouldn't have made it through our training. Now we are going to have to put up with people like you wanting to bypass the entire experience system? Not a chance.

Oh and were you military? Because I'm not sure how you got a pilot slot and accepted into OCS? Are you saying you didn't go into officer candidate school because you couldn't fly? Oh and don't you think your unfirtunate medical issues will prevent you from obtaining a first class medical or do you plan to lie to the examiner about it?

Your solution to the industry expectation that those FO seats at Regionals are diminishing. Then what happens? Who will the Majors recruit then? If the rest of the economy is any indication, your future FO's will be from China. FO pay at the Regionals is perhaps the biggest obstacle, I agree.

The second broken aspect is the Regional/Major divide. If you're not experienced enough to be a FO of an E190 at JetBlue at 1,500, then you're not experienced to be a FO a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500. The basis of your argument cannot seriously be "Well, the Regionals are an experience building stepping stone so it's okay". The American public deserve better. I have no doubt you build valuable experience at the Regionals, but this whole system only exists to save shareholders money, not to train pilots for the Majors.

You are clearly not reading what I'm typing. I have repeatedly said I don't think any graduate from an ab-initio program should get a slot from the Majors ahead of a more experienced and qualified pilot. :rolleyes:

You are red-herring the hell out of my posts. Only I'm not putting down Regional pilots, because I didn't say that. I literally had to re-read my posts to verify I didn't say those things. I never said you get the same experience going directly to the majors. I never said you get the same experience after flying a 172. I merely asked, for example, why you're comfortable with someone flight instructing in a 172 (or whatever), and then piloting a CRJ at a Regional at 1,500. Why is that okay to you?


I seriously have no idea how that could quite possibly be your reaction to his post.

Why would they do this? We have 5000 applications on file with probably 3000+ from experienced guys whether it be military, regional or corporate. We plan on having 5000 pilots with little or no retirements. We have 3000+ pilots now. Seems to me that we will have plenty in the pipeline for us. What's not happening is the people actually becoming pilots in the first place whether it be the expense the time or the low pay at the regionals. My question is if the ab initio programs are going to take hold then who will fly the Regionals? The people that can't afford a slot? I don't think so. The pay will have to come up on the regional side because there won't be anyone to fly those planes to get passengers to the mainline flights. That's how it will change not this abomination which is a slap in the face to the regional, military and corporate guys busting there ass every day.

But that's exactly what your saying. Your wanting to go into this program and you will come out with only limited experience training basic maneuvers to students. That's not experience. The flying public deserves better? How are they getting better if your in the right seat of a major? They aren't. Piloting an RJ in the left seat with 1500 of a smaller plane is a hell of a lot easier to handle than you behind the controls of a 100 to 200 seat airplane? Let's take an example. The Colgan flight that crashed in buffalo. The captain should not have been a captain and the FO had limited experience. Unfortunately the took souls with them. But only a few. Are you suggesting that it would have been the same if they were in a 737? With a 130 on board no. I can guarantee you that experience would have prevented that entire thing. With the icing the weather not raising the flaps that actually was giving the aircraft the only lift it had left. That's the experience that you can't get flying a 172 and unfortunately have to get at the regionals. Why don't nascar drivers start out in daytona and have to start on go karts? Because they learn the nuances of driving. Anticipation reaction things a book and a half asked teacher can't teach you.

. Then who's going to fly the regional aircraft if all we do is hire directly into the majors.

The second broken aspect is the Regional/Major divide. If you're not experienced enough to be a FO of an E190 at JetBlue at 1,500, then you're not experienced to be a FO a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500. The basis of your argument cannot seriously be "Well, the Regionals are an experience building stepping stone so it's okay". The American public deserve better. I have no doubt you build valuable experience at the Regionals, but this whole system only exists to save shareholders money, not to train pilots for the Majors. [/QUOTE]

You are not a pilot and are disregarding every single response to this from pilots. You need experience to fly. Which you need to work on over a few years. If you have no doubt that you build valuable experience then why should there be this god awful program? This system existed before regionals were flying jets. You got experience flying smaller turbo prop planes and kept building on that. Now regionals have crjs and embs and that was because no one had the foresight to see that the ceos decided to cut major jobs and replace the routes with the cheaper regional guys.



You are clearly not reading what I'm typing. I have repeatedly said I don't think any graduate from an ab-initio program should get a slot from the Majors ahead of a more experienced and qualified pilot. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Then why aren't you taking flying lessons getting your ratings, becoming an instructor then getting a job at a regional going to the left seat then in 4-5 years get on with the majors?


You are red-herring the hell out of my posts. Only I'm not putting down Regional pilots, because I didn't say that. I literally had to re-read my posts to verify I didn't say those things. I never said you get the same experience going directly to the majors. I never said you get the same experience after flying a 172. I merely asked, for example, why you're comfortable with someone flight instructing in a 172 (or whatever), and then piloting a CRJ at a Regional at 1,500. Why is that okay to you? [/QUOTE]
Well who do you think is going to fly at the regionals? OK then we should not let any pilot fly at a regional until they have 5000 hours. How's that? Dies that make you feel safer for the public.


You came on here and asked a question. Myself and most of the other guys told you how bad this program is yet you continue to try and justify yourself by arguing against guys who have been in this industry for years. I'm sorry you don't like what we have to say



I seriously have no idea how that could quite possibly be your reaction to his post.[/QUOTE]

You did say this right? That's it's "reasonable" to go into the right seat after a rigorous training program with an experienced captain. So should every captain here have to keep an eye on you? What if one of the captains makes a mistake? Would he want some 1500 hour 172 pilot with some simulator time watching his back or an ex regional captain, an ex military pilot or an ex coorpotprate captain? I know which I would choose. This program was not created to fix a fantasy pilot shortage. It's sole purpose is to hire a no time guy that owes everything to JB and would go as far as to cross a picket line if need be.

In the absence of more experienced pilots, I do think it's reasonable for that, yes. I have no doubt a Captain would rather take someone with more experience. These same conditions all apply for Regional operators, though.

Regarding the pilot shortage, I'm only going off of what I read. Head of ALPA, Regional Airline Association, Boeing, etc. all seem to think there's one coming. There seems to be no shortage of applicants for Majors now but that's projected to change.

I have not applied to the program, I am merely defending the merits of it. Some here are saying it's resentment because it wasn't available to them, some are saying it's about safety, and some are saying it has been a successful model elsewhere.

I cannot comment on the CRJ piloting statement as I've never piloted one.

I am a pilot, I'm just not a commercial pilot. If you are saying a pilot lacks sufficient experience at 1,500 to become a FO, then they shouldn't be gambling the lives of thousands of people every day while they build that experience at the Regionals. That's what I meant when saying the American public deserve better. I am not saying the better solution is simply to hire directly into the Majors, I'm merely drawing a parallel between what JetBlue are trying to do, and what the Regionals currently do.

How about no one? What do you think? Are 1,500 hour Regional FO's an acceptable level of risk to you? If it's not acceptable, then the model is broken and you shouldn't be comfortable with that idea. If it is acceptable, you'll have to explain why to me.

I am. I will likely be with a Regional next year. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression the movement to the Majors was closer to 10 years?

THOUSANDS of regional pilots PFT'd during the 80s and 90s. Why was it ok for them to do it and not now?

It wasn't.

But, it was an economics issue of supply vs. demand.

GP

OIC.... They HAD to PFT to get a job at the certain commuters that required it. Why didn't they get a job at a commuter that didn't PFT?

As an Airbus captain (not at JetBlue) I fly with lots of great FOs and a few crappy ones. I find there is very little correlation between their experience and their performance. Almost none, really.

If my company had a program like this, I'd never give a graduate of the program a hard time... Unless they sucked.

It sounds to me like a lot of people here are just frustrated that somebody else might have an easier path to the airlines than they did.

Didn't SWA just stop PFT?

...This thread is disturbing.

You have the money to go through the JetBlue course, go through it, work hard at it and you will be rewarded for your hard work. All of these people chiming in that it is not fair, bla bla bla. Hint number 1. Life is not fair. A lot of us had a crappy decade or two due to the times. I'm in my 40s and finally at a national carrier. I wish I could have been at a legacy by now, but I will never fault anyone for taking a better path.

Good for you, you get to bypass the crappy life as a regional pilot. Most of these people wish they could have as well. Good luck to you and hope it works out.

Not true. I'm glad I got the experience at the regional level. Yes it was low pay for a couple of years but then the captains moved on and I took their spot. There are no shortcuts for experience like that. This is the same as these millennials coming out of college crying unfairness because they don't want to start at an entry level position.

Ah yes, remember the good old days when people graduated college and begged for jobs cleaning toilets just so they could "pay their dues?" Man I miss those days.

Nobody from a prior generation EVER wanted to make good money early in their career, start a 401k before they were 40, or aspire to retire at 50. Nope, it's just this "entitlement generation."

GMAFB.

I don't think this is about scrubbing toilets. But "Paying your dues" goes hand in hand with the experience of what to do when it really hits the fan. We all know that real life rarely gives us what happens in the sim... Sim=wink wink there may be an engine problem on this takeoff... Real life= BLD leak in icing conditions followed by flap failure, air return, bing bong lady in 23 is having a hear attack, oh your diversion airport just closed... deal.

The reason you fly smaller planes early on or go into the military is so if you Ef it up you hurt the smallest number of things. JMO.

Going forward, I truly don't think jb will need this program and I don't support it at this stage of the game. That being said, if I was in a position to apply and attend I'd take it. Call me hypocritical, but that's life.

Nope!

The reason you fly smaller planes early on is because nobody will hire you to fly the bigger ones.

That was due to market conditions.

Market conditions are changing.

You're right captcooldoosh. No way in hell I could have dealt with those horrific scenarios flying a F18 at 25. Not nearly enough ILSs or SIDs under my belt.

You're lying to yourself. You tell me if a legacy would have offered you a job straight out of college or at the time you were getting your first regional job that you would have said thanks but no thanks, I need to get my regional experience first? Right. There is no doubt that you got great experience at the regionals.

Closing Arguments:

1. Regionals are designed to wip up a fresh 1500 hr 172 CFI into an Airline Pilot. The regional Check Airman have dealt with scenario for years with these type of experience; you know, how to land a jet for the first time. What is de-icing? Radio calls in JFK, flow in ORD. So, go to a regional that will gladly teach you this, not buy yourself into a Major airline that will expect you to know all these things on day one of IOE.
2. Your typical civilian new hire at a Major airline is regional guy used and abused for years. The mere fact that they are out of the regionals makes their attitude much more pleasant. You bought your job, it makes you a consumer, which gives you entitlement. If your entitlement expectations are not met, you develop a self destructive attitude, which will be a pain to deal with from the training department all the way to the line pilot.
3. You are buying yourself a job, no questions about it. Your average regional pilot did not. They bought the flight training, worked their way up to the regionals without any guarantee that their seniority number is reserved at a major. Only thing that will get them there is merit. You are bypassing everything by just writing a 125k check. Imagine starting a 4 day trip where the captain had to slum it out at the regional level, network and work their way into B6, while you, bought your job. Imagine the level of respect from your peers.
4. If B6 is worried about a pilot shortage, then maybe they should stop ignoring high time regional CAs and LCAs who are deemed untrainable. Lots of us will be happy in any seat if our QOL and paycheck is better. B6 will have a net pool of 3000 candidates, which is not a shortage.

There's no way around it, you bought yourself a job, and it's not even guaranteed. Idotic is not even correct world to describe this type of action. Get a job using your own merit, if you have none then....

This is still a many-year investment. The pilot shortage crisis will peak in five years if nothing is done to change things, and this ab-initio program will take at least that long. You will emerge into a very changed world. JB will likely have been swallowed up, or will have grown big enough to start their own low-paying subsidiary for new pilots.

That's a huge ($125,000.00) gamble. What if JB isn't JB in 4 years? What if you don't make it? Do you get any type of refund at any point along the way if you opt out? Will you get any health benefits during your 4 years of training?

Don't expect any respect from your peers for choosing this path.

GP

A lot of comments on the $125,000. That's a huge amount, no doubt, but after breaking it down it's not entirely unreasonable. Most of this is pulled from program's FAQ:

• It includes all transportation and lodging for four years. Where I live, that means I'm not spending $57,600 on rent over the course of four years (I currently spend $1,200 a month on a tiny studio apartment). For someone like me, that has now effectively brought the cost of training down to roughly $70,000, about the same as ATP's program which trains hundreds of Regional pilots each year.
• All other miscellaneous fees are included (even an iPad, for what it's worth). I know I spent a small fortune on examiner fees, materials, etc. during my initial training.
• You become a salaried, benefitted employee at CAE for two years, or longer. Instructor salary is over $40K per year. I couldn't dream of getting close to that at my local flight school.
• This is obviously subjective, but as CAE has a strong international reputation, you're arguably going through a more regimented and airline focused curriculum compared to one's local, GA flight school.
• There is no obligation to sign-on with JetBlue at the conclusion of the program. You're free to recruit with any airline if you desire. So, if it seems every pilot and their dog will actually hate you, fine. Go sign on with a Regional. When it's all said and done you really haven't spent that much more on your training, unless you currently live rent free.
• If you do drop-out, you obviously keep any ratings you've earned. They're yours, not JetBlue's or CAE's. You do not have to pay any remaining fees, but you will not receive a refund for payments made.
• There is no financing partnership available through CAE or JetBlue, so good luck finding a bank to give you a $125,000 loan.

I've read this whole thread and basically came to the same conclusion as you.

Navy guys are the ones that need a visit to the shrink the most. :D

These are all questions I'd have before coughing up $125k.

I'll give ya a hint, they don't have an answer for any of these questions.

Or maybe this is the fact that the airlines are working to further erode the respectability and pay of the profession. Look at how the VA just today announced they are going to be using more Nurses with the ability to write prescriptions. (as if somehow prescriptions were the solution to every ailment) Doctors disagree with this practice but of course, they are not being listened to by management. A terrible VA is just about to get even worse!

Make no mistake... this program is to reduce pilot pay by saying that someone far less experienced, far less educated can do the same job. A company doesn't really care if you get violated because it is YOUR license, not theirs. The company will defend themselves saying they had operational control, the pilots had training, and of course all the legal language in the operations manual always makes the pilot culpable. Lastly, what makes a pilot experienced is not hours necessarily -- it's the type of experiences he has had (e.g. emergencies). Airlines are using statistical observations to say that operations are far safer now, airplanes are safer, and thus the chance of an emergency occurring (with an inexperienced pilot) are very low. And in the event an emergency does occur, the company will always say that it was an emergency and that the pilot is to blame. From a legal standpoint, the company sits pretty if anything were to happen meanwhile people will have died.

They can make all the arguments they want about the military taking inexperienced pilots but it's an apples to oranges comparison. The military persistently demands discipline and affords significant training opportunities (every flight includes training). I somehow doubt that these guys are going to go do 6 instrument approaches with touch and goes in the real airplane every month. I also doubt they will pay a small fortune to have them at the sims every month practicing emergency procedures. What they want is not impossible but it requires a great deal of money to do correctly and no airline will ever pour that much money into training.

And one last point about discipline... in the military you are in a rank structure that is very real because it is re-enforced by military law. This promotes discipline whether the young pilot wants it or not. Usually the Aircraft Commander is not just the guy who signs for the airplane, but also the guy who outranks his copilot and rest of the crew. Not to mention, performance in the cockpit is also tied to various records kept on the pilot all of which are actionable by the unit commander. The civilian world simply has no equivalent -- not even close. A chief pilot is about the closest you can get but he has no real authority over the young pilot. This is because no civilian is above another and all employment is totally optional. Remember, a civilian can have a bad attitude and simply quit his job. They can also be extremely undisciplined and unruly in their job until they decide to quit or go elsewhere. So, I wish the JB would quit making the military comparison. The truth is they are navigating uncharted waters with this programme.

Well I think this is the first valid argument against the program: It is designed to defeat the supply/demand trend that currently favors labor.

For that reason, and that reason alone, ALPA should try to stop it.

However, demonizing the participants is not the way to go, especially if you are going to use fallacious arguments to support your position. It makes you all look dumb and petty.