Do NOT pay for ANY training. The pilot shortage will get MUCH worse...wait for them to pay you!!!

I believe the teacher's unions are so strong because both parents have jobs in most families. Can't find daycare/babysitter and can't take time off to care for kids = parents who will be ticked off at politicians if the teachers strike.

FF workers get their $15/hr because nobody wants those jobs anymore.

Both teachers and FF workers can easily get sympathy from the general public. Airline pilots? Not so much, especially at the majors level.

Are you on the NM list?

GP

Funny how this thread is a parody of its own subject;
The OP should normally have to post in career advice room, instead here it is in the majors. That must tell you something.

Good evening, everyone. Long-time lurker, first time poster. :)

I hope my comments below don't come across as negative. Simply trying to better understand people's viewpoints on JB's program.

A common theme from opponents on this thread is simply because they've endured years of low pay and undesirable conditions, therefore, all aspiring pilots have to as well in order to be respected. Isn’t accepting that trend simply perpetuating the negative facets of the industry that experienced pilots on these forums complain about so openly?

I’m also unsure why some accept the idea that the regionals are a stepping stone. If you’re comfortable with a FO operating a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500 hours then there’s no reason the same shouldn’t apply to an E190 with a JetBlue logo on the tail. Regardless of airline, there are human lives at stake and the standard should be the same.

With that said, I do agree that if there are more experienced and qualified candidates readily waiting, those spots should always be given ahead of anyone going through an ab-initio program. I do not want a shortcut, but the current path towards a decent career in the airlines is so hard to stomach something has to change. Maybe life and pay in the regionals isn't as bad as they say, but I've browsed these forums long enough to know that it seems to be the consensus.

What I believe will inevitability happen, similar to what CTC and CAE already do in Europe, is that more airlines will employ similar ab-initio programs and begin covering part of the cost (unlike what JB are doing), reducing the burden for students while ensuring airlines have their rosters met. Maybe not in the next five years, but perhaps in 10-20 years.

Outside of this program, the current (and traditional) path for me is to continue training at my local flight school (where I've gone through three instructors), pay $50,000 more (added to my degree's debt), and accumulate 1,500 hours buzzing around the pattern in a 172. All the while being paid an hourly wage as a CFI, receive no training in CRM or airline operations, and then get hired by a Regional where I'll make $20,000-$40,000 less than the job I currently have and received out of college. Do this for 10 years until I'm lucky enough to get hired by a Major.

I understand experience and safety is paramount in aviation, but there has to be a better way to train and incentivize aspiring pilots.

Thanks.

The current path is hard to stomach? That is what we call "experience." Nothing that is worth having comes easy and if it comes easy its not worth having. You aren't talking an entry level job here, you are talking a potential long term, high paying career. You think that should be obtainable with 150k and a pulse? The regionals are what they are and yes, they put people right seat at 1500 hours in a jet. This has unfortunately become an accepted risk because there is simply no other option. The majors demand better, the passengers demand better and your captain will demand better.

You simply do not know what you do not know. You'll go to them on day 1 after IOE and likely be sharp with the systems, you will have your flows down and run a checklist quite well. I'm sure you will be very proficient on the box and manipulate the autopilot as good as the next guy. What you likely will not do is provide any real value should an outside the book abnormal arise. Weather avoidance? Ice? Windshear? Contaminated surfaces? You simply do not know because you have never been there, let alone been there potentially hundreds of times. I can say with confidence that 95%+ pilots there have and have real word advice based on real world experience. Youll get there but they may not have time for that. They need a second pilot NOW, not 2000 hours from now when you start to gain a modicum of experience. Its not even these big things, you will have no concept of how the flow of an airport like ORD or JFK operates, who to call, when to call, when to read back, when not. While not everyone has this experience, they have other experiences that catch them up to speed rather quickly. In the end, everyone will try to justify their choices. Everyone who participates in this gateway will justify it any way that they can. Just don't expect to be welcomed with open arms from the pilot group, they aren't your peers.

^^^usmcsgt^^^
Nails it.

The saving grace to this program, if you can even call it that, will be that by the time any of them makes it through and on line we should have at or above 5000 pilots. This would require 2000 retirements or 200 more airframes to see the left seat. On a time line 10-15 years to upgrade.

My first instructor, before pay increased, made just over $20,000 a year a couple of years ago starting at SkyWest (EMB 120, I believe they've phased them out since). I'm not asking for a handout or a golden ticket, I'm simply stating that type of wage is unacceptable for people today (or ten years ago), especially after incurring significant debt. That's a perfectly reasonable position to have. I'm not alone in this and there are countless articles and threads on this.
If you've accepted that's just how it is, then we'll likely never make much progress on this front and the status-quo will continue.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the experience front. I will say, however, there are thousands of regional flights operating daily that fly in those conditions and at those airports. If you're saying every day there are American regional pilots putting thousands of lives at significantly more risk, then I think you know as well as I do that change needs to happen.

Exactly how I see it. Thanks for saying what I was seeing.

It's just the next phase of the industry hiring. It sucks for those of us who didn't have the option of the Gateway Select path, but it is what it is. Just understand what those before you went through.

Those who are now paying $125k for a job at JetBlue will feel the same thing 20 years from now when JetBlue is offering $125k bonuses and fully paid training for any new cadets!

So your answer to ending substandard regional wages is to pay 150k for a major job? So with the big push to $15 minimum wage there is a solution. Pay 150k and be guaranteed a job running a McDonald's. Problem solved, no more substandard hourly rate.

I fully understand the envy from those who had to pay their dues and endure years of poor jobs on their way up.

With that said, and removing any discussion of money out of it, the fact remains that if the training is done to the right standard, and taught to subjects of the right calibre, there is absolutely no argument to pretend it would be less safe than the traditional US industry model.

QANTAS, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, KLM, Lufthansa, Air NZ, Virgin Atlantic, Emirates, JAL and many more have ab-initio training programmes. Countless others will take guys fresh out of flying school.

There is no safer 'bucket' of airlines than those listed above. The driving force behind that is the standard of training and the calibre of the individual.

We all know high time guys that are next to useless, and low time guys that have genuine talent and natural airmanship. Time means little. Similarly, if the B6 training is crap, or they aren't recruiting the right guys into the programme, it will be a disaster.

Some of the above training programmes are entirely free of charge, others require the student to pay up front. The financial aspect is a different argument all together - and driven entirely by supply and demand. As mentioned, we could see the legacy carriers offering fully paid up cadetships in the future, if the economy and industry continue to flourish.

That may seem novel in the US, but to the rest of the world, it really isn't.

PFT schemes come and go with airline hiring cycles. News cycles will cover the "pilot shortage" more and more during the next 15 years until industry pay gets high enough to attract more people into it.

When you really look at it 1500hr FO starting out at a regional isn't all that different than a 1500hr FO starting out at JB. Why is it acceptable for regionals but not JetBlue (aside from the pay)? For regionals it was a step up in safety etc. from 250hr commercial hiring mins.

JetBlue management is keenly worried about the pilot shortage long term. There's no way they can drop pilot pay (even though cutting pilot costs sounds good to their investors) because their pilots will jump ship to the legacies and they'll fail.

The 125k price (plus the price of a 4 year degree) is going to be prohibitively expensive for most people anyways unless JetBlue finances it themselves. If the union wants to combat this PFT program the CBA should attack any sort of seat locks and training contracts for any new hire accessions and upgrades to limit the company's leverage over a PFT accession beyond their probation period on property, and the CBA should ensure the same pays ale for all pilots regardless of accession sources and the Pilot group should welcome them with open arms so they're less likely to side with management.

You had me up until "time means little." During 99.999% of airline operations, I would agree to a large extent that experience isn't necessarily a decisive factor in the safety of airline operations.

During that .001% of ops in which no written material applies, the experience is nearly everything.

Why is it okay to pay $50-70K at my local flight school, be trained to fly in a general aviation sense, and then get hired by a Regional at 1,500. Also, the $125K includes housing and many fees. When it's all said and done it won't be too far off from ATP's fees, which many Regional pilots flow through.

As I mentioned in my first post, I sincerely hope anyone who has the qualifications and experience land the spots they've worked hard for ahead of someone going through an ab-initio route. I'm fully aware of the work those people have put it and they deserve the rewards.

However, times are changing, and simply because those before me accepted substandard living wages for seemingly endless years doesn't mean the next generation has to.

Like others said, it will be me in twenty years complaining that cadets have their programs paid for and received higher pay that wasn't available to me when I started. None of this is really about safety or experience, it's about perceived fairness and money.

Absolutely not.

The whole reason I imagine JB has these candidates pay in the first place is to test the waters to see how successful the program is with little monetary loss to them if it fails or needs adjustment. As well as keeping the pilots union from having a collective heart attack.
If the program succeeds (like it has for many other airlines) JB will begin to absorbe the cost like others have said.

After hounding a JB representative connected to the program through e-mail, she suspects successful canidates to make roughly 40k, maybe 50 once joining the line. Which currently is a liveable wage and not slurping sodium in a bunkbed. If the industry picks this up then the regional lifestyle would end or at the very least diminished dramatically.

This is merely speculation at this point.

I get your point, but I don't entirely agree.

During that .001% of Ops, experience may help. Equally, of greater use is knowledge, decision making, TEM, etc.

Experience may help with those things too, but it's not a precursor. If you select individuals with a tested aptitude for the important skill-set, I'd say that guy is more useful than a magenta drone with 8,000. The military also agree.

Hence, the airlines I mentioned continue to maintain as high a safety ranking and record as it is possible to get in the industry.

Perhaps saying 'experience means little' was too strong a term, but you get the general drift of my post, I'm sure.

Value Jet 592. When your time is up, your time is up.
The same could almost be said for Swissair 111. The captain was one of the most expirenced pilots at Swissair and the FO wasn't straight from flight school either. The whole thing might have been avoided if he did a pan pan call when he smelled smoke and diverted straight to Halifax just to play it safe, but his expirence likely told him it was the A/C system. There are times when expirence means nothing if the cards are stacked against you.

You already know that, but that's just my thought on that.

Your repeated references to slurping sodium in a bunkbed indicate how little you actually know about this profession you're attempting to join. (Hint: Crashpad existence is by no means limited to regional pilots).

Most of us aren't opposed to the idea of a better defined route from flight school to major airline cockpit. We are, however, opposed to a route that knocks several years off the accumulated experience that should be gained in the meantime. Arguing that your ability to write a check for 125k entitles you to skip the thousands of pilots whom are already qualified and desire that position is a non-starter on a forum of airline pilots.

Roughly 40k maybe 50 is a livable wage? It's what regular new-hire pay ends up being, but to characterize it as "livable" is way off the mark. Then again if you have a spare 125k to pony up for a job here I'm sure you're not worrying about the pitiful 1st year pay.
Maybe JB should try to make even more money off these people and charge 125k to get into the 190 and say, 150k to get into the 320.

Absolutely. I feel this will be the psychological impediment amongst line pilots that will brand this group as... Who knows what. Well the good news for Gateway 7 guys/gals is that with electronic charts no one can take a dump in your flight bag like the old days. :eek: So at least there's that.

I might be wrong, but weren't the Swiss guys management pilots? It seems to me the original Capt. rejected the aircraft.

You win guys. I'll stick with drilling. Can't imagine what will happen, but I guess it's doomsday for the airline industry.

Just announced : JetBlue's gateway 8 program!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UGcyier95sw

It was obviously acceptable to him.

quite a few comments on Swiss 111 that are off the mark. industry practice back then and Swiss fire checklist proritized detection and elimination of sources first and only then the land at the nearest suitable airport. they were trained that way and following procedure. after this accident many airlines changed their procedures and now a land asap is of priority when dealing with an onboard fire.

Also the TSB did many simulations of the flight profile. Even without the fuel dump they conclusively proved the aircraft would have not made it regardless.

Pg 248
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...3/a98h0003.pdf

quoted portion:

Theoretical calculations confirm that from any point along the actual flight path after the aircraft started to descend, it would not have been possible for the pilots to continue maintaining control of the aircraft for the amount of time necessary to reach the airport and complete a landing.

Some of you think that because the Europeans have been doing this it's OK. The reason that Most non-US airlines have these programs is the ridiculously high cost of flight training to the average European student because of the ridiculously high cost of fuel due to all the government freebie programs/socialism. Fuel is over $8.00 a gallon there and that's why many European kids come to the US for flight training. Our system is much better. Ab-Initio would probably work out OK, if the standards are very high for applicants, but I don't see the airlines paying for rigorous military style training that would make an Ab-Initio program safe and worthwhile.

Knowledge, decision making, and TEM are all things that are largely the byproducts of experience. "Wisdom," would be another way to say it.

The reason these programs have some success is in no small part due to the other guy in the cockpit. The concept of hiring hire ab initio CAPTAINS is a ludicrous one for one very specific reason.

Hardly. What other option did he have (especially with no degree, which most Majors are wanting to see now)? The airlines have been abusing the idea that pilots will fly for nothing for a long time. This trend has devalued the profession in the interest of profits and provided an environment of limited mobility and substandard wages.

This is nothing new to you all. If none of this were an issue, this thread wouldn't exist and there would be no talks of a pilot shortage.

And with that experience comes the ability and conviction to tell the person next to you, "No" when your experience suggests the course of action is a bad one.

In regards to Swissair, the smoke/fumes of unknown origin checklist took 20-30 minutes or more to complete. Only at the end did it suggest a diversion if results were not suitable. The checklist was revised after the accident. This is important to consider: NO manufacturer produced checklist takes time of completion into account. NONE OF THEM. This is an issue I discussed extensively when I managed the human factors program at FlightSafety Intl.

Agreed 100%

We're all humans and we all rely on each other, regardless of seat or role, to keep each other out of trouble. It works best when both seats in the cockpit bring experience to the table.

So for all of you that thinks experience shouldn't matter. Why don't we just have ab initio directly into the left seat? If you think 125k to get enough training to feel comfortable flying the 190 and can handle all situations, why not just hire directly for the left seat? If any of you think it would be just fine, you do not know enough to be a pilot period. Like I said in the past feel free to have a miserable life in the right seat and don't expect me or any other pilot teach you anything on the line. You will be scrutinized written up and completely ostracised until you quit.

Seems like a lot to pay to just quit after a year.

No one has said experience shouldn't matter and no one has proposed that question except you, for obvious reasons. It is, however, reasonable for someone to go into the right seat after a rigorous and airline focused training program, with the guidance and leadership of an experienced Captain. Many global, established airlines with excellent safety ratings seem to think so.

There mere existence of the Regionals proves this as they use this exact same model and operate thousands of flights daily, safely.

Where did anyone say a graduate of this program would be comfortable handling all situations? No amount of experience and hours can guarantee that. Why is it acceptable to spend the same amount of money and become a FO on a CRJ but not an E190? Same airspace, same airports, same responsibilities for human lives.

As someone who truly wants to join the industry, this is probably one of the most disheartening things I've read in a while. Focus your anger and frustration at airline Management who greedily created this horrible system (have you seen their salaries recently?), not those trying to be a part of change.

My opinion: this program is a slap in the face to every regional pilot with an app in at JetBlue.

When I was at WIA a month ago, the folks at the JB booth looked at my resume with 3000 TT, and told me they wouldn't even consider me until I have 6000 hours (and presumably threw it in the 'shred' pile). Yet they had just hired a bunch of pilots with 0 TT off the street that they are going to train up. That pretty much summarizes what I and a bunch of other regional pilots think of this program....

I completely understand your sentiment and do not support that aspect of the program. Pilots more qualified and with more experience should be given spots ahead of ab-initio graduates. I hope JetBlue still plans for that to be the case.

Keep in mind no one has actually been accepted into this program. The title of this thread is wrong. He has merely been approved to give JetBlue $200 to continue on with his application. The first graduates of the program wouldn't hit the line until late 2020.

JetBlue is projected to hire almost 400 pilots this year. Assuming all of the first class of 24 graduates finish and start in the projected year of 2020 (which they probably won't), that's ~6% of JetBlue's new pilot pool for the year, with well over 90% of new hires still coming from the Regionals and other operators.

If the supply of new Regional pilots continues to diminish as projected over the coming years (assuming no change in compensation), JetBlue has a model in place to address this. If anything, this puts further pressure on the Regionals to address reduced supply.

It may seem unfair from a labour standpoint, which is a very valid point. However, one can't make the arguments based on safety, because there are similar programmes throughout the world which have worked for decades. These airlines are no less safe than those in the US. In fact, many have better safety ratings, for what that's worth.

There are valid arguments, but safety isn't one of them.

Also, don't hate the player. The guy who is awarded a place on the scheme will be good calibre, high in aptitude, and a low training risk. He or she have done nothing wrong, they've just taken an opportunity that was presented to them. Will it work out? Who knows, but save your angst for the managers that are doing it to line their own pockets.

The only reason we don't have more accidents in general is because of the high reliability of turbine engines and automation that takes the mental math (and associated pilot errors) out of the equation most of the time. When I was an instructor at FlightSafety I tested my theory. Face it: everyone knew in advance what the footprint for recurrent consisted of. So I switched it (off the record, I.e. Didn't count it towards training): I gave them a V1 cut as the first thing we did (everybody expected a normal TO to airwork). 95% went off the runway or rolled it on takeoff - regardless of experience level. I'm strongly opposed to gateway 7, but that's food for thought.

I could care less if you want to be a part of this industry. My a get is to you and every other person that thinks this short cut is a good thing for the industry. You will not have enough experience to perform at a high level if something goes wrong. These so called "airlines " around the world ha e regional they put their pilots in and they work there way up. Cathays pacific has a cadet program and those cadets do not touch the controls. Asiana has the type of system you so desire and you see what happened to their SFO flight when the tried to do a basic visual landing. This program stinks and I'm sorry your feelings are hurt but that's nothing compared to how bad they will if you actually try and go through the program.

Check your facts, Cathays pacific has a cadet program and they don't not touch the controls. The are just seat relief. Asiana crashed with those type of trying guys because they could not perform a simple visual. The other airlines have Regionals they put there guys in to work there way up. The only reason they do is is because the cost of training is so high there would not be any pilots oliver on europe. Yes I will hate the players for trying to bypass a system that has never been a problem in the past. Captains will have the burden of these guys and that's not right. This will end soon I hope.

What's your solution, then, other than proclaiming your goal is to make people's lives miserable simply because they don't want to endure the same lifestyle that pilots complain about on these very forums? Feelings are definitely not hurt, but five minutes and an internet connection is all it takes to realize the current model is broken.

Also, which you seem to ignore, how do Regional pilots get by every day? Why does this not apply to Regional FO's? How are they managing on the same experience? You just give them a pass because that's the way it is? Are the lives in the back of the plane not as important on a Regional flight?

So, I can instruct people to fly around in familiar airspace and buzz around the pattern in a 172 until 1,500 hours, then that's okay for me to start as a FO at a Regional? That's all I have to do?

Regarding European airlines, the difference is pay. Many of their ab-initio programs are sponsored, too. Airlines like British Airways pay back the entire cost of training for graduates of their ab-initio program who stay with the airline. That's a great incentive and last time I checked BA flights weren't dropping out of the sky.