Not a good example. The people you're referring to are called "nurse practitioners," and it's been well established that in many situations, including primary care, they have patient outcomes equal or superior to patients treated by doctors. The AMA, however, is a VERY strong union, and has done quite a bit to keep these providers on the outs... so while I object to your point in fact, in principle ALPA could take a page from the AMA's playbook.

My opinion
 

So the resentment is quite understood, from my understanding JB wants the guys to learn the JB way from get go. Training at most schools is 6-7 months, JB training is 15+mos, then mandated 1500 hrs or 24mos at CAE whichever is LONGER, then class date for next available for FO training so about 5 yrs all together, similar to the regional path just about. If you did training at GA flight school, you'll be in regionals by year 3 then 4-5 yrs to major and that's a very optimistic outlook. This program saves you maybe 3-4 yrs half of which is spent on reserve and hot reserve at regional anyways. With most regionals now having flow thru to major without interview str8 class date, JB is simply gearing up to have a guaranteed pilot supply starting late 2021 and there on, 24 cadets per year and the rest hired from pool, 125k is a very hefty price tag but it's an investment in yourself just like you'd take a student loan for any specialized degree. There are pros and cons to every path and different opinions from different perspectives, I guess in 15 yrs the , now new cadets, would be resentful against cadets whose training would be sponsored by the airline and the, now older generation, cadets paid OOP. But I know this, going forward, this will be the way of training pilots, majors paying, bond signed for employment, pilot employed at regional and flow thru to major in 5 yrs or so. Gotta be !!

Don't hammer the guy looking for a job. You would have done the same if the opportunity was there. Hammer the pilots creating this $$$$. The FAA is going to do trials on reducing the cockpit to one pilot. Guess what kind of professionals are running that research. PILOTS. Experienced ones at that. We are our own worst enemies.

I have 1st class. Got mine 9 months ago and he accepted A 2-years old EKG. Yaayyyy

I don't understand why a pilot graduated from this program shouldn't be respected. By any mean is an easy way, at all!
This program it isn't for me as 4-years is a huge period of time. But for those that come thru, I feel they should have nothing but the utmost respect.
I don't understand for real your and many other peer's point.

Umm because all they are doing is trying to buy their way into a major airline job.... didn’t put in anytime or real hard work to get there. Regionals, mil, cargo, 135 etc

Try again in English. I don’t understand what you just said. And the post you quoted is almost a year old.

From zero time to jetblue took me 12 years of flying, and that’s just a fart in the wind compared to a large group of my peers. 4 years is a huge period of time? Get real guy... this program is a shortcut and a slap in the face to everyone that came before you.

Dude has got to be a troll.

The trolling in the JetBlue forums, on various fronts, has been A-grade lately...

i heard we're merging with nasa!!!!!!

Not before we discuss the merits of full relative or category and class for the SLI :eek:

These ab initio are a way to dilute the pay over time. Airline execs are grabbing every straw possible to pay people less.

So for you, and the rest of us, remind yourself everyday that you spent between 100k to 200k on a 4 year degree and then paid an additional 125k for flight training and that your first jobs in aviation are going to pay in sandwiches. Make sure when you end up at your "dream job" your pay never falls short of rewarding that type of financial commitment.

How many pilots have done that over the years. Its a serious threat! Also to mention that a Germanwings pilot has been through some of the most intense psyciatric testing in the aviation world. Misery does breed this type of behavior. Whether or not he was nuts isn't the question. If he was making 150k do you think he would have still done this? Someone that commits suicide has decided that nothing is left. Its not like he started flying to ultimatly carry out this plan, he did it on a whim.

Most pilots believe in paying their dues. And using hours as a rough way to estimate the amount of dues one has paid is the industry standard. For example, a pilot has been flying for 13 years, was a CFI, fo and a captain. Has a masters degree. Most of their experience is international time. 6000 hours of airbus time. of which 2000 is PIC. They have worked with about 28 different nationalities and have never failed a checkride in 13 years. Was a CRM manager and heped out at the safety department. They just got hired by Jetblue after applying for 2.5 years. Compared to that person, what do you bring to the table? Do you deserve the job over that guy?

First solo to jetblue took me 20 years.

Yep 13 years for me.

The ab initio program dilutes pilot pay. We are paid commensurate to experience. We are paid based on what we expect we are worth. A 40 year old believes they are worth a lot more than a 23 year old just happy to sit in a shiny jet. There are plenty of 20 year olds who would PAY to sit in that seat. BIG difference.
Folks with decades of experience also understand the importance of unity in a union (well most anyway). Ab initio is just a way to control pilots from when they are the most naive and ignorant.

And also, while some pilots got hired into E145's with around 300 hours, it was never "most".

FWIW, I interviewed with JetBlue after 17 years from my first solo and was around mid-level age in my interview group.

Zero to JB Hero took me 16 years. I struggled for years flying w/students, eventually cargo, eventually a regional. Made 20-30k for a frikking DECADE.

And I kinda had it easy. Lots worked harder and longer than me and I respect them. They respect me too for the hard road I followed to get here.

So you’ll have to pardon those who have no respect for those trying to shortcut the entire system. Too bad if you don’t like it.

A lot of these XX years to JB have to do with the aviation environment at the time. We are not in the same Environment today that existed 20+ years ago. Yada yada yada, pilot shortage.

The reason these programs exist is because of the airlines need for pilots and the pilots need for training. If just one of these two factors was gone, this program wouldn't exist.

According to the JB Profile on APC, the most junior captain was a Feb 2015 hire. Since zero to Regional FO takes about 2-3 years for a motivated pilot, it's conceivable that even pilots NOT using the ab initio program could potentially be hired within 4 years of their solo flight.

That said, I'm not a fan of these programs. Pilots can get flight training MUCH cheaper than 110k/125k using FBOs and Flying Clubs. Goodness knows there are plenty of CFIs looking for hours willing to do work cheap on the side.

So you're basically paying for the benefit of skipping the regionals and going direct into JB. I won't lie... that's a pretty big benefit. I just can't justify the 70k-80k additional expense for it. Mostly because I loathe debt.

Exactly. With the regionals now a days paying huge bonuses it makes no sense to do this at all. I don’t care about the pilot environment today when you still have a bunch of regional guys who would want to be here. This is all about getting pilots on property who feel like an indentured serpent to Jetblue. Until the other majors do these types these guys will only be gear monkeys for me. And how will it work when they were told they would be put into the 190 only? Where does seniority fit into that promise? Probably older then most new hire pilots...

12 1/2 years for me.

His check cleared?

lol!

Gp

Meh. I don't have much of a problem with this program, mostly because I know that most people, myself included, would have taken advantage of something like this if it existed 16 years ago. I paid $80,000 in the early 2000s for my commercial, CFIs, etc. According to the Google, that's about $110,000 in today's money. Sure, I instructed, then went to a regional and paid my dues for way way way too long, and I finally got here.

If I could have paid like $90,000 (in 2003 money) and gotten on at a company like JetBlue in 2006 or 2007 instead of 2018...do the math, that would have increased my lifetime earnings by a metric #*#* ton of money.

I guess my point is, don't fault a guy for taking advantage of programs that exist now that didn't exist when we were brand new. The industry has changed, and they are simply doing what is best for their careers. It's unfair to expect someone to cost themselves seniority and lifetime earnings simply because we had to struggle more, and we feel like they should have to struggle too. Life ain't fair.

Not interested in flying with a switch monkey. I'd like for the FO to have some there there, as in actually have flown planes in the real world, made good decisions and bad, and be able to offer up options based on some experience other than sim session 24b.

It’s human nature to expect people to pay their dues. Many of us came up in the early 90s in which pay for training (yep, you paid your employer), time building schemes (pay to fly right seat in a Navajo on a revenue flight), and training contracts were the norm. I started flying in 89 so the last 30 years have been quite a ride. There’s a great article in the March issue of Professional Pilot Magazine that lays out where we were and where we are now. More aptly entitled, “Show me the Money” if you ask me.

That being said, I’ve psychologically come to grips with it is what it is. I spent nearly 3000 hrs doing primary flight instruction. I’ve freight dogged single pilot loaded with ice at 3am over Lake Erie. Done the fracs. The regionals. Twice. Congrats to anyone that gets the career boost. I Just don’t expect someone to look left and whine about having to CFI for 300 hours, or bemoan the fact that after two years they’re not an Airbus CA despite the largest thing flown being a Piper Seneca. Attitude is going to be everything in how this is received. If you’re in this program the learning should (will?) continue for years on the line.

No doubt if any whining starts up, it won't be taken well. But it shouldn't be, in my opinion! Don't whine about how hard reserve is when you're at your first airline, earning $90,000 in your first year. Nobody who flew for years on end making under $25,000 a year is going to listen to that for very long.

Two decades ago: flew with boatloads of 185hr TT time guys. All their training was for straight 121 and they ended up flying for a crappy ACMI in semi controlled airspace, with controllers who spoke little English and not many ILS-s. Best part was, none of them ever complained about anything, all were eager to learn, and after a few months, you really didn't have to hold there hand anymore.
At NK now, still would take most of those over the grumpy 10 year regional guys that never got the legacy interview.

Definitely would take the shortcut if I could, and so would you.

I'm not interested in being the instructor to bring those guys up to speed in the real world, when there are thousands of guys who already have experience who also want the job. I did that in the regionals, and while that was OK for the time, I have no desire to fill that role again at a major airline. I don't see why this is a controversial opinion.

Don’t want to be hand holding anyone at this level. Sorry. Not going to happen.

Agreed...
For YEARS I flew with 250 hour guys at the regionals and most of them were enthusiastic and wanted to learn. After the “1500 hour rule” went into effect there was a Huge improvement in the quality of the FO's I was flying with. I actually didn’t think the rule was going to make a difference but it did.

I know some people don’t wanna hear this, but hours and experience matter, no matter how much money you threw at the program.

I don’t think it should be done at a “major” or even at jetblew.

OP: Update? Other Gateway Select Pilots?
 

OP.... Did you go with Gateway Select? If so, how did it go?

Others in the program... How has it been?