Is college still worth the investment?
12-15-2009, 03:09 PM
#11
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Look into it
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Where do you live in a trailer park???
If a person were to get hired by the post office right out of high school they would already have four or five years of income earning years under their belt before the college educated pilot was ready to hit the job market as an instructor.
The pilot would then spend most of the next five years in low wage jobs trying to get to a regional. Once getting hired on at a regional they could then expect to spend five more years in the right seat. After fifteen years of time invested the pilot finally makes it to the left seat at a regional and can make a living.
The mailman however has a paid off house and five more years until retirement. Just another way to look at it.
Skyhigh
12-15-2009, 03:11 PM
#12
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Education
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I disagree.
There have been plenty of studies on the value of education and the increases to pay over a career (lifetime) that you can recoup.
I remember being told in one financial seminar that EDUCATIONAL DEBT was one of only two good kinds of DEBT.
To all of those considering it - I have advice opposite of Skyhigh's post above.
ALWAYS strive to get more and more education.
It is fine if you want to get the civil service job at 18 years old with the post office - but go to night school and continue to improve your bargining position with education. It gives you more options.
USMCFLYR
There have been plenty of studies on the value of education and the increases to pay over a career (lifetime) that you can recoup.
I remember being told in one financial seminar that EDUCATIONAL DEBT was one of only two good kinds of DEBT.
To all of those considering it - I have advice opposite of Skyhigh's post above.
ALWAYS strive to get more and more education.
It is fine if you want to get the civil service job at 18 years old with the post office - but go to night school and continue to improve your bargining position with education. It gives you more options.
USMCFLYR
Parents seem more interested in sending the kids to college merely as bragging rights. Students want a four year party. As a result we have an over educated population for college graduates who would have been better off going to trade school and universities full of silly majors like mountain sports and flight technology.
Skyhigh
12-15-2009, 05:10 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
It is becoming harder to prove that a higher education is the answer. The article does a good job of explaining why. The cost is becoming difficult to justify.
Parents seem more interested in sending the kids to college merely as bragging rights. Students want a four year party. As a result we have an over educated population for college graduates who would have been better off going to trade school and universities full of silly majors like mountain sports and flight technology.
Skyhigh
Parents seem more interested in sending the kids to college merely as bragging rights. Students want a four year party. As a result we have an over educated population for college graduates who would have been better off going to trade school and universities full of silly majors like mountain sports and flight technology.
Skyhigh
Just how broad is your brush?
That's the way to lump the all parents and the entire college student population into one group. Nicely done - and totally inaccurate.
If you don't believe that college is worth it then I hope you will guide your children into other areas. I'm glad my mother funneled me the way did she even if I did end up with a *worthless* degree in the end
it got me where I needed to go for quite a ride that I have had over the past years.Hummmmm...........I wonder what is next?
USMCFLYR
12-15-2009, 05:17 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Counterpoint
For every negative there is a positive.
I wondered if I could Google 'College Degree and Potential Earnings' and come up with an article that would support my claim that an education would increase earning potential.
College Increases Earning Potential
I got 566,000 hits on that wording.
I only opened up the first one.
The first paragraph for those too lazy, or uninterested, to read the entire article (like myself):
Now Sky - you search and find 566,000 articles that make a counterpoint and we'll call this disagreement a push. I know they are out there - - so others will just have to educate themselves 
and make up their own minds which road to take. Btw - there isn't one road that is right for everybody.
USMCFLYR
I wondered if I could Google 'College Degree and Potential Earnings' and come up with an article that would support my claim that an education would increase earning potential.
College Increases Earning Potential
I got 566,000 hits on that wording.
I only opened up the first one.
The first paragraph for those too lazy, or uninterested, to read the entire article (like myself):
Many of the benefits of education and a lifelong pursuit of learning are intangible, but an education can also pay big dividends in terms of future earning power. According to The College Board, college graduates earn 80% more on average than high school graduates. Over the course of your child's life, the difference in earning potential between a high school graduate and a college graduate is more than $1 million. Earning potential increases with each degree a student receives, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.
and make up their own minds which road to take. Btw - there isn't one road that is right for everybody.USMCFLYR
12-15-2009, 07:25 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 828
A degree, when applied as a generality, is no longer worth the cost in today's tuition environment. Flight training within the context of a 4-year program is REALLY a BAD investment. At best it is a premium people pay for non-economic valuations, and largely from people with disposable income. Otherwise it is foolish.
Even technical and/or quantitative skill degrees must be properly weighed against the level of debt you're incurring to attain said education. In-state tuition with parental subsidy for cost of living to come out getting a median individual income salary off the chute? Yeah that's probably worth it and is as good an ROI you could get out of a degree.
The reality? You're making less than median individual income in an environment where degree holders are becoming common place and the value of a degree as a discriminator is becoming watered down. Not so win-win to say the least.
Now, that is not to dismiss that college degree holders have an aggregate compensation higher than non-degree holders, but is that opportunity cost worth 40-100K+ in student/private loan debt? The answer is clearly no. So there are shades to this discussion, a simpleton look at aggregate compensation without providing proper context to levels of debt and ROI is meaningless.
Personally, I would like to see a resurgence to the apprenticeship track. In our modern construct, the apprenticeship track got stigmatized as a blue collar dead-end manual-labor-exclusive outcome; this is outright bull. My formal training in engineering was really a pre-req to go beg for a job that did NOT require the amount of quantitative intensive skills I paid out of pocket for the "priviledge" to attain. It certainly wasn't worth the time or expense to prove to an employer a simple "boredom tolerance". When WWII kicked off they were cranking engineers in 8-12 months, street to the slide rule. Nowadays it takes 5 years with half of the curriculum consisting of "roundness of life" chaff non-major coursework and lab fees ad nauseam...to end up a de facto Microsoft/open source suite babysitter data mining monkey for 45K a pop adjusted for locality pay and a shelf life of 7 years before furlough/expectation of cross-country move, family and screaming kids in tow. Postal worker is right. Better retirement. Unless you live to work like the rest of the peanut gallery, then over-degreed pawn is right up your alley.
Even in the military the level of education pursued on my part is overkill. Elements of leadership I never acquired in a college setting anyways, and I coughed up the flying "air sense" out-of-pocket on my own before mother blue gave me a shot. Outside of formation flying in turbine equipment and cult-like adherence to checklists mother blue got away with murder with my acquisition. So when I look at my children's education in 20 years you bet I'll actively attempt to instill a sense of frugality when it comes to educational expenses, and will not contribute to their and my financial destitution by ignorantly buying into the educational debt racket mantra. Of course I also expect in 20 years for the current debt trend to become outright unsustainable. Perhaps then technical apprenticeship tracks will become more prevalent and monetarily advantageous over the proverbial "BA degree with less-than-median income outcome" off the chute option. As a Gen Y myself, I believe when the majority of us become parents of college age students the pervasive attitude of "college and then ticket to the life" approach to education that worked out for the boomers will be largely flushed out. I was the offspring of boomers and to a large extent a "beneficiary" of their approach to education, yet I'm rebuking their model when it comes to my children, since it clearly didn't work for my generation and will be no more than a high school diploma for my offspring.
As to the aviation outcome. That boat sunk a long time ago.. I've said it once and I'll say it again:capacity constriction and scope relaxation. That's the sound of your retirement wave fizzing to a deflated anti-climatic death. In 20 years the steady state of commercial aviation for the median pilot will be a 70K non-inflation adjusted left seat median cap with food stamp workers on the right seat tapping out at 30K. No pensions, no medical, no future. Truly a hobbyist-only pursuit. And that's morally OK, just financially disingenuous as a bona fide source of primary income for a family. As such, my active pursuit for the next decade is to position myself economically to be able to afford general aviation, lobby for general aviation to become MORE accessible and not less, and pursue recreational flying to my self-fulfillment needs. Professional aviation clearly will not be able to dually provide a stable and competitive compensation landscape while satisfying the self-fulfillment needs most people get into the gig for. Turn your head away from that reality at your own peril. Degree holding will not be even a blip on the radar as far as aviation employability concerns rank up.
food for thought.
Even technical and/or quantitative skill degrees must be properly weighed against the level of debt you're incurring to attain said education. In-state tuition with parental subsidy for cost of living to come out getting a median individual income salary off the chute? Yeah that's probably worth it and is as good an ROI you could get out of a degree.
The reality? You're making less than median individual income in an environment where degree holders are becoming common place and the value of a degree as a discriminator is becoming watered down. Not so win-win to say the least.
Now, that is not to dismiss that college degree holders have an aggregate compensation higher than non-degree holders, but is that opportunity cost worth 40-100K+ in student/private loan debt? The answer is clearly no. So there are shades to this discussion, a simpleton look at aggregate compensation without providing proper context to levels of debt and ROI is meaningless.
Personally, I would like to see a resurgence to the apprenticeship track. In our modern construct, the apprenticeship track got stigmatized as a blue collar dead-end manual-labor-exclusive outcome; this is outright bull. My formal training in engineering was really a pre-req to go beg for a job that did NOT require the amount of quantitative intensive skills I paid out of pocket for the "priviledge" to attain. It certainly wasn't worth the time or expense to prove to an employer a simple "boredom tolerance". When WWII kicked off they were cranking engineers in 8-12 months, street to the slide rule. Nowadays it takes 5 years with half of the curriculum consisting of "roundness of life" chaff non-major coursework and lab fees ad nauseam...to end up a de facto Microsoft/open source suite babysitter data mining monkey for 45K a pop adjusted for locality pay and a shelf life of 7 years before furlough/expectation of cross-country move, family and screaming kids in tow. Postal worker is right. Better retirement. Unless you live to work like the rest of the peanut gallery, then over-degreed pawn is right up your alley.
Even in the military the level of education pursued on my part is overkill. Elements of leadership I never acquired in a college setting anyways, and I coughed up the flying "air sense" out-of-pocket on my own before mother blue gave me a shot. Outside of formation flying in turbine equipment and cult-like adherence to checklists mother blue got away with murder with my acquisition. So when I look at my children's education in 20 years you bet I'll actively attempt to instill a sense of frugality when it comes to educational expenses, and will not contribute to their and my financial destitution by ignorantly buying into the educational debt racket mantra. Of course I also expect in 20 years for the current debt trend to become outright unsustainable. Perhaps then technical apprenticeship tracks will become more prevalent and monetarily advantageous over the proverbial "BA degree with less-than-median income outcome" off the chute option. As a Gen Y myself, I believe when the majority of us become parents of college age students the pervasive attitude of "college and then ticket to the life" approach to education that worked out for the boomers will be largely flushed out. I was the offspring of boomers and to a large extent a "beneficiary" of their approach to education, yet I'm rebuking their model when it comes to my children, since it clearly didn't work for my generation and will be no more than a high school diploma for my offspring.
As to the aviation outcome. That boat sunk a long time ago.. I've said it once and I'll say it again:capacity constriction and scope relaxation. That's the sound of your retirement wave fizzing to a deflated anti-climatic death. In 20 years the steady state of commercial aviation for the median pilot will be a 70K non-inflation adjusted left seat median cap with food stamp workers on the right seat tapping out at 30K. No pensions, no medical, no future. Truly a hobbyist-only pursuit. And that's morally OK, just financially disingenuous as a bona fide source of primary income for a family. As such, my active pursuit for the next decade is to position myself economically to be able to afford general aviation, lobby for general aviation to become MORE accessible and not less, and pursue recreational flying to my self-fulfillment needs. Professional aviation clearly will not be able to dually provide a stable and competitive compensation landscape while satisfying the self-fulfillment needs most people get into the gig for. Turn your head away from that reality at your own peril. Degree holding will not be even a blip on the radar as far as aviation employability concerns rank up.
food for thought.
12-16-2009, 07:32 AM
#17
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,322
I think there is some basis for the original article in terms of long-term income potential. It is already known that high-quality students will generally do well whether they attend an Ivy League school or Podunk State...once they hit the workforce, the cream rises to the top regardless of which cow it came from.
But there are other factors aside from just pure income to consider...
Someone who is going to create modern art with a Mig Welder may not need a four year degree, and he might still make good money. Same for an employee of a small mom-and-pop business.
But if you are going to work in medium or large corporations, or government, I think many of the bureaucratic skills you need will be found in a 4-year program...liberal arts or others.
Also, what is the dollar value of having more folks who know more about how our government and political system functions?
My gut feeling is that too many kids are going to college just because it's the thing to do or because they perceive an earnings advantage. Many of those give up and wander off, but it might economic sense as a nation to tighten the admission standards just a little...but politically that could be hard to do.
But there are other factors aside from just pure income to consider...
Someone who is going to create modern art with a Mig Welder may not need a four year degree, and he might still make good money. Same for an employee of a small mom-and-pop business.
But if you are going to work in medium or large corporations, or government, I think many of the bureaucratic skills you need will be found in a 4-year program...liberal arts or others.
Also, what is the dollar value of having more folks who know more about how our government and political system functions?
My gut feeling is that too many kids are going to college just because it's the thing to do or because they perceive an earnings advantage. Many of those give up and wander off, but it might economic sense as a nation to tighten the admission standards just a little...but politically that could be hard to do.
12-16-2009, 07:36 AM
#18
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
College
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Could you be any more DRAMATIC AGAIN!
Just how broad is your brush?
That's the way to lump the all parents and the entire college student population into one group. Nicely done - and totally inaccurate.
If you don't believe that college is worth it then I hope you will guide your children into other areas. I'm glad my mother funneled me the way did she even if I did end up with a *worthless* degree in the end it got me where I needed to go for quite a ride that I have had over the past years.
Hummmmm...........I wonder what is next?
USMCFLYR
Just how broad is your brush?
That's the way to lump the all parents and the entire college student population into one group. Nicely done - and totally inaccurate.
If you don't believe that college is worth it then I hope you will guide your children into other areas. I'm glad my mother funneled me the way did she even if I did end up with a *worthless* degree in the end
it got me where I needed to go for quite a ride that I have had over the past years.Hummmmm...........I wonder what is next?
USMCFLYR
I do not intend to encourage my sons to go to college unless they have a specific aptitude or interest that will immediately translate into a good job. As a father I am interested buying something by supporting my child's education. A child that can support themselves when they are through. There are many other paths besides college where a person can apply themselves.
There are many other ways to make it in the world besides having a college degree. Many are proving to be better. Auto shop has been taken away and replaced with calculus. Not everyone should go to college however it seems that high school has become exclusively focused on it. As time goes by you will see more on this. The trend of blindly going to college is going to come to an end.
Skyigh
12-16-2009, 08:16 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dream Job
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
As a father I am interested buying something by supporting my child's education. A child that can support themselves when they are through
I'm starting to think that aviation is a wash with or without a degree. It's like the lottery, you just have to be lucky to win.
12-16-2009, 08:50 AM
#20
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
The lottery
Originally Posted by tlove482
You don't know how many of my college classmates from Aviation got furloughed and had to move back in with there parents. I lived with mine for 2 years after graduation while "paying my dues" as an instructor. 2 years later.... i'm back to paying the same dues.
I'm starting to think that aviation is a wash with or without a degree. It's like the lottery, you just have to be lucky to win.
I'm starting to think that aviation is a wash with or without a degree. It's like the lottery, you just have to be lucky to win.
In aviation you get to pay your dues over and over again.
Skyhigh
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