Senior Skipper

Think what you will about med schools JJ, but seeing that it was my #2 career choice, I spent a LOT of time doing tons of research on medicine. I stopped short of actually attending school. Doctors take care of their own. Pilots need to do the same.

cardiomd

I don't think it is quite that cut and dried -- MDs are vulnerable to the same supply/demand forces, pyramidal ranking structure, prolonged training at low pay, and often work for a large corporation, similar to pilots.

I think one major difference is at the end, a lot of doctors can work for themselves in private practice and can do quite well financially with almost certainty. A full time physician working for an academic hospital has to deal with the same stuff (e.g. you should be happy to be here, so we will pay you terribly), and must often find supplemental income (moonlighting, getting external grants) because the hospital pays them so terribly. If enough people quit, then they may raise salaries, but there is a very inelastic supply. The effect is such that "big-name hospitals" e.g. Johns Hopkins, Harvard hospitals, etc. will pay their physicians much less than a corresponding private practice, because they have a surplus of applicants and people enjoy the prestige of that environment. There are mid-career MD/PhD researchers at Harvard making approximately $75,000 per year after decades of training. They could be making four times that in private practice, but choose to stay. Supply and demand. They can get smart, competent people to work at this rate, so why pay more?

I work for a large hospital conglomerate and could probably double my income if I set up shop independently, but then would have to worry about essentially running a small business, which is not really what I am interested in.

And, the field of medicine does have a significant amount of people who exit, as one of the other pilots here indicated. I have a friend that left medicine to run a construction company, and earns over twice what I do; he works one night a month covering a hospital to keep his MD license active.

The MDs that run their own practice will make much more favorable environments for the physicians, get paid more, and have a much more humane existence.

In some ways, the grass is always greener... I envy and highly respect all pilots (would trade in the Columbia 350 for an A320 any day ), and in many, many ways the public is on your side. Hopefully with lobbying efforts, public support and recognition that high salaries are needed to attract and retain the best talent, and recovery from the recession, these issues will improve with time.

cardiomd

Sorry, meant to include the following link which discusses the in-training issue a bit.

Are Resident Doctors Underpaid in the USA ? at MDsalaries - The Physician Salaries Blog

Jetjok

SS,

Not to question your decision or your motives, but let me ask you, you say you "stopped short of actually attending (we can assume you mean medical) school." My question is were you accepted to medical school? I ask because I know probably over a thousand pilots, perhaps as many as 1500, and although I've never asked any of them, I don't know a single one who ever expressed a desire to be a doctor instead of a pilot.

As well, while we in this profession have suffered reductions in pay, while at the same time experiencing give-backs in quality of life benefits, as well as loss of pensions and other hard fought benefits, doctors, with the exception of those who perform elective procedures (those not covered by insurances) have also seen their pay scales slide south. If you look closely, you'll find that the vast majority of them work for the insurance companies. If not directly, then certainly close enough to be told by the insurance companies what they can charge for each and every procedure they perform. I'd guess, and it's just a guess, that doctors have suffered more loss of income than have pilots.

JJ

Senior Skipper

Jetjok

First of all, let me expand on the statement I think set you off initially- that doctors are not smarter than pilots. In terms of the stack of books they need to read, then yes, doctors need to read way more in med school than pilots do in flight school. I do not however think that a doctor's IQ, reasoning ability or general level of intelligence is any greater than a pilot's. For the reasons I gave above, medicine is a more competitive field to enter, and so that selects for candidates who are more dedicated. You don't need much dedication to enroll as a student at your local flight school.

I agree that many US doctors work for insurance companies whether or not they like it. Even so, a randomly chosen doctor probably makes more than a randomly chosen pilot. As cardiomd said, supply and demand isn't the simple fix; I agree with him, but I think it's a start. As somebody with experience in the airline industry, how do you think we should start to fix the problem? Not trying to pick a fight, just honestly looking for your thoughts.

To answer your question- yes, I was accepted to medical school.

Senior Skipper

I quite agree that residents are grossly underpaid. $40k just doesn't cut it when you have the sort of debt a typical resident has. Here's the bright side though:

unlike pilots, doctors start off with a modest, but livable wage

unlike pilots, the majority of doctors will have a significant salary increase after a fixed period of time.

cardiomd

Absolutely. The demand is pretty constant (increasing as the population ages), and supply fixed (approximately 40,000 medical graduates per year only + a few tens of thousands foreign grads). Moreover, at the end doctors can tailor their career toward $$$ (private practice) or $ (hospital position / research / part time / "lifestyle" position.)

I love to fly, as most pilots and probably everybody here on this board (you can see my posting history and why I started to occasionally read here.) That is a big reason, I would guess, why there is *not* a mass exodus from the piloting career. I'm just at a loss as to how the bad conditions for pilots can be readily fixed. It is not realistic to say to the public "stop expecting low-priced fares"... the average joe just goes to travelocity and will select the lowest fare. He doesn't think about what this means or the ethics involved, just like shopping at wal-mart and the questionable ethics involved there.

Perhaps regulation will improve things, and I wouldn't underestimate public support which could really help push corporations (and perhaps lawmakers if needed) to make better conditions for commercial pilots. *Nobody* wants to be flown by somebody who is paid poverty wages or pulls back on the stick during a stall.

Dan64456

If education is related to pay, than how come the kid who delivers pizza makes more than a regional airline pilot? 4 yr degree plus years of specialized training and debt?

SkyHigh

Pilots get paid in job satisfaction.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR

If you are going to look for absolutes to explain the world then you are going to be disappointed in many areas. IN GENERAL - higher education equals higher earning potential which often actually leads to higher earnings. There will be exceptions and the aviation industry seems to be one of them.

USMCFLYR