SkyHigh

Hoss,

I have posted an old UAL story that I shared a few years ago here. I am sorry if you have already seen it.

It was the summer of 1993 and I was a 20 something know nothing kid who was employed as an Alaskan part 135 single engine captain of the tundra. My mission that day was to pick up a small party of lodge guests from an extremely remote native fishing village for an on-demand scenic flight. Scenic flights were rare in the bush since you can’t even go to the dentist without taking an airplane ride so I was intrigued and looking foreword to something different by playing the tour guide.

On the dirt ramp stood four stoic figures. I taxied up being careful not to blast them with dirt, and introduced myself. The oldest promptly projected his right hand and announced his name quickly followed by his title as a United Airlines Captain the second and third then did the same in similar style. They were from a legacy three generations deep of United Airlines hierarchy and carried themselves with the reserved poise of English royalty. The introductions were brief and I was stunned at how young some of the heirs were. At the time I was one of the leaders in the industry from my college graduating class and my best was to Captain a Cessna 207 these guys were already First Officers in the 737 for UAL. I felt small by comparison. I mean what failures had I made to be so reduced in my career by comparison? But still at the time I knew few better and none who wore a white shirt to work. The eldest gave a short list of attractions that they wished to view and I set to work instantly to fulfill their wishes. The weather was good and the season right to view many varieties of wild life and I felt satisfied that I met the objective. After an hour and a half we were back at the runway and on final. I expected some seat shifting and groans from the back as I glided to the gravel threshold but instead there was calm silence. I made a special attempt to make a smooth landing witch can be difficult in a heavily loaded STOL 207 with oversized tires. To my relief the reunion with the earth was indeed non eventful and I was able to hold my head high throughout taxi and shutdown. Back on the ramp the grey haired Captain projected his right hand again with a five dollar bill and a stern “thank you for the nice ride”.

Throughout the flight I was able to determining from eavesdropping that he was also involved in hiring at United so I mustered my courage and asked him what he thought of my chances at UAL and what I should do to improve my resume. With a quick glance and one squinted eye he asked only one question of me “who do you know at United”? “No one” I answered, in fact they were the first pilots whom I ever met from United. After a short pause he answered with a short and a quick sentence “Not now, Not ever” and then turned and walked away. I was stunned as if shot through with a bear gun. It took a minute or two to recover from the immediate shock of impact that those words had on my sole. I couldn’t believe that after that near perfect flight he could so coldly assess my chances like that. I mean I was a good example of a healthy normal American kid who had perfect vision and a strong love of aviation. How could he have known enough about me and my abilities in that 90 minute flight to be able to give such a harsh assessment of my young chances? True I was wearing thread bare kaki denim work overalls that were grease stained and smelled of rotten milk, but how could he make such an instant discount of my future after only one question? His words burned my sole for almost a decade before I began to see the humanity in his actions that day. His only failure was in not giving me the reasons for his snap decision.

Years later I was able to determine that he was trying to offer a kindness through a quick kill. My guess is that he determined that without a strong introduction from someone well placed on the inside that my chances were slim. To him I was just another garden variety suburban boy who would be lost in the ocean of clawing faces unable to gain attention from the Human Resources Department. His words turned out to be prophetic. Not only did I never see the interview room at United Airlines but none of my coworkers in Alaska did either. Growing up in America we all are trained to think that everyone has an equal chance and that just isn’t true on any level and for anyone. A few years later I ended up dating a daughter of a United Airlines 747 Captain. The message from him was clear, take good care of my daughter and you will be a made man. In the end I couldn’t take that offer.

Success depends highly upon the contacts that you have and only then upon your skills and merit. On that sunny day in the Alaskan Bush that aging Captain looked into my future and gave me his honest no bull estimate. It was the early 1990’s and I was a young white kid in rural Alaska without any contacts up against a world of well groomed turbine youth superstars from aviation legacy families. Everyone has a chance but most don’t ever have a real chance. If your goal is the big time then perhaps you should find a quiet room and take a careful and honest assessment of your personal career assets before investing too deeply.

SkyHigh

Airhoss

Yeah yeah yeah we've all heard this story before from you. That story in particular. Here's a hanky to wipe your tears.

Having been working for UAL for going on 14 years and having spent 6 of those years at the the training center as an instructor and check airman I don't think that I have a little better insight to how it really works I know that I do.

The only guys who got hired much under the age of 30 were interns.

I personally know two UAL kids who didn't get hired by UAL. So having a mommy or a daddy at UAL doesn't mean you are going to get hired. The other UAl kid I know that did get hired busted her first interview and got hired on her second. Of course she had over 5,000 hours with a goodly amount of turbine PIC. And she was furloughed and never came back she now works for Disney as a corporate pilot. She had no daddy pilot at Disney to help her out so gee I guess that isn't the end all be all to getting hired now is it?

So the TRUTH is quite simple 99% of the pilots working at UAl or any other major did not have a parent working at that airline to get them through the door. And even if the tiny percentage of pilots who did have a parent working at their airline that is no guarantee that they are going to pass the interview and get hired.

While there are many different backgrounds flying at UAL the VAST majority come from mid or lower mid income families and had no extra help from a rich daddy. To say that it's not that way is very plainly a lie.

So when you are done venting and mentally fabricating an imaginary world where the only people that get hired at legacy carriers are blooded airline royalty you need to do some critical thinking.

Answer these questions please.

1. Do you know or even know of a UAL captain who was hired at 21 because his father was a pilot at UAL? I am not talking about some vague reference to a "a guy who knew a guy" I want a name and a senority number.

2. Do you honestly believe that if you had taken care of the princess that the UAL captain could have magically got you hired at UAL? Do you know anybody who was hired at UAl or any legacy because of their girlfriend's father? Once again a name is required not some dreamy story that you heard from a guy who knew a guy.

3. Did you honestly just say that a STOL 207 on tundra tires is hard to land smoothly? A STOL 207 on tundra tires is is one of the most cream puff airplanes on the planet to land.

4. Just a guess here but if you smelled like sour milk and looked like a hill billy redneck it might explain why the "old captain" A. didn't want to talk to you and B. didn't think that you had a chance of making it to a majors.

Of course that is only conjecture just like any and all of your advice and "knowledge" that you share so freely here on APC.

In closing I am going to tell you about some good friends of mine at UAL.One of which is a my neighbor and a high school buddy he was hired the week before I was at UAL and I didn't even kn ow that he was pilot until I met him in jet way several years after he was hired.

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After high school Tim worked construction jobs to pay for college his dad was a manger at the local Safeway grocery store. After college he decided to join the Navy and learn to fly 8 weeks into OCS he fell off an obstacle at Pensacola and severely screwed up his back. He was told that he was no longer flight qualified and DORed from the course. He then went to a local FBO worked two jobs to pay for his training, then worked for as flight instructor for American Fliers where obtained the level of chief instructor before getting Hired at Northwest Airlink where he obtained the rank of captain on the Saab 340. He worked there for 5 years before he got hired by UAL in 1997 and is currently a 767 F/O.

Kurt my neighbor on the other side grew up in Detroit Michigan where his father was bar tender at the local drinking hole. Kurt was an ROTC guy who went into the Air Force after college and was a T-38 FAIP for his whole career of 6 years he got out and flew Metro Liners for a freight company for a year before he was hired in 1989. Kurt was working as an A-320 captain until he had a severe accident which caused brain damage and was medically retired 5 years ago.

Mark was the son of a refinery worker he also put himself through college got his ratings at a local FBO and worked odd jobs until he was hired by a local corporate flight department in Houston. He was hired by UAl in 1988 or 89 and id now a 767 captain.

I could go on and on. I am telling you now and I've told you before that the vast majority of pilots at the majors came up on their with own, no rich parents, and no daddy pilots to help them through the door. You can spit and sputter and rationalize all you'd like but these are the facts. What you are spewing forth is a fantasy.

USMCFLYR

Your posts absolutely sound like you want people to agree with you that is was all the evil plan of the airlines trying to keep Sky down that set you on your course.

OR MAYBE it truly was from hard work. You don't know these people's storyies. You do the same assuming that they got to where they were solely on luck. I bet you get mad at those people who hit the lottery too don't you? You seem so mad at those that might have hit a streak at luck that your whole purpose it to talk down to them.

When have either of them said that their position are SOLEY from their efforts. Nearly everyone on here talks to being in the right place and the right time (also known as luck)

Poor me again. You have no idea if these people - or many others - had any of these advantages. You like to ASSUME that they got to where they are because of all the LUCK they had that you are so disappointed didn't knock on your door too.

Maybe there is still something there that you fail to recognize. I've read those stories of how you met this airline pilot or that airline pilot and how they told you that you didn't have a chance and it makes me think of some of the people that I met at sirshows who want to talk about being a military pilot. Sometimes they just come up to you with the biggest chip on their shoulder because they didn't get the answer they wanted from a recruiter, or didn't do well enough on the tests, or failed the physical fitness test, or a myrid of others problems. They just can't wait to tell you how stupid the military is for not taking them since they are obviously God's gift to aviation (though they might not have 1 hour in the air yet). All of your stories just make me wonder if you attitude might have been you biggest hinderance from breaking into the world that you say you tried so hard to enter. I can just see you portraying the same attitude that you do on here for that flight with the Alaskan CA (or was it UA), and then at the end of the trip asking for a recommendation and the guy just shaking his head.

Well you certainly are one to being talking about others spreading false truths.

Do you see it SKy? You can't even say - if you are a Cinderella story and got to where you are though life through hardwork and dedication and some good luck a long the way then share it. You just assume that you can't get there if not solely by good luck. Yeah - that is certainly telling it the way it is SKy.

Not to mention how insensitive and insulting it is too the thousands of professional pilots who have made it to where they are despite everything that you assume.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR

I love this first part of the story.
Quite the dramatic flare in the writing isn't it.
I wonder if the other people in this "story" might have a different take on the situation.
Imagine if their story was something like "We sat watching this plane trying to land. It looked like it was flown by a person who had yet to get his first solo under his belt. As he taxied up he nearly ran over half of our party. Then this 20 something guy pops out of the cockpit looking like he hadn't washed in 3 days, he gets out and comes over to us, spitting tobacco near our feet, wipes his mouth on his hand and then offers it to us with a shout of obsenities reminding me of someone with Tourette's Syndrome.

Oh I could go on.... Now why would one believe my story anymore than his one-sided version of events infused with emphasis as he said in an earlier post?

I also love the part where Sky professes himself to be "one of the leaders in industry from his graduating class..." Based on what metric I wonder?


I know someone finding that out that same lesson in the legal world of DAs and AUSAs. Sounds like networking is alive and well in the world.
When that suppose UAL CA asked you "who do you know at UA?", maybe you should have said "WELL YOU!" with a big Alaskan smile!
Instead it seems to me that maybe you came across as someone who thought that he deserved his chance at the "big time" because he just gave him a nice scenic flight. Maybe that UAL CA was the biggest jerk (and he was hanging out with a bunch of jerks). The biggest jerk I had met up to my finishing the training command was a Marine Hornet Major and I darn near decided I wanted nothing to do with the Marine Hornet community because of HIM. Little did I find out later that darn near everyone in the Marine Hornet community knew him to be a jerk. He could have been anyone, anywhere and he probably still would have been a jerk.

He gave you HIS OPINION of your future. Just like those many that told me I would never have a chance to even get into the military, much less fly. If bought into it then that was your mistake.

Yours is just but one possible path Sky.

USMCFLYR

Note: Sorry Hoss - we used some of the same types of examples there in our replies. I keep telling myself to read all the posts before responding.

DeadHead

This story is beyond pathetic for many reasons.

First off, it is extremely insulting to any youngish pilot, or pilot in general, who has been hired at a major airline. I have no family members in the industry or any other strong political ties in the aviation industry, but I have been very fortunate in the relationships and friendships I have made. I feel helping and encouraging fellow pilots is an important part of having a healthy career.

Point in case, I have a little story of my own. When I started flying, as most civilian pilots, I started in a group of starry-eyed student pilots who all came from many different backgrounds. I remember there was one specific individual in the class who is a friend of mine to this day. Well, long story short, a few individuals from my class thought it was fun to ridicule and make fun of this individual on a regular basis. I personally wasn't raised to do that kind of thing, having respect for other people I think is a highly undervalued these days. Well anyway, fast forward years later this individual was working as a captain at a company I was applying to work for. The hiring committee contacted him and he gave me a good recommendation which lead to my hiring. Now if I had treated this individual poorly with some of my other classmates I am sure that my recommendation would not have been as positive as it had.

Point is this industry is very small, and while you love to think that it is all about who my daddy works for, I like to think it is about the relationships a pilot makes that helps define his or her career.

Secondly, why would you carry so much weight from the advice of an individual you hardily now. If you are confident in your abilities and know where you come from, then no one should be able to discredit your experience, especially a stranger.

Your story does nothing, but describe another lame attempt to discredit anyone at a major airline while continuing to re-validate your ongoing excuse on how this industry failed you.

brianb

You said it. Sky just enjoys being the "downer" in all conversations regarding the industry. I think he just likes to throw s..t out there and see what will happen. I wish he was this critical on himself, maybe he might see a smile!

TonyWilliams

I'm considering this bike over the KTM 530-EXC. Fuel injection, closer ratio transmission, rear linked suspension (like Japanese bikes), really good Japanese front forks (new for this year). Discuss.

Airhoss

My KTM is a 530 XCW with a street legal kit on it.

I talked to my brother who is a certified motorcycle mechanic long and hard before buying the KTM.

Here was his take on it. He doesn't like fuel injection on dirt bikes because the fuel pump is in the tank and eats up much needed fuel capacity. But admits that if you are riding where you are doing major altitude changes like here in Colorado Fuel injection is a better way to go.

My bike has a manual fuel enrichment knob on the bottom of the carb so I can set the mixture at will. Not huge deal for me not having fuel injection.

Forks my bro owns a WR450 and is doing fork seal rebuilds about once a month on it the forks on the WR are junk in his opinion. I've got a buddy who has a CRF 450 and has the same problem with it. But these dudes really ride hard so that probably has something to do with it.

The bro tells me that if you are diligent about bleeding your forks on the KTM you shouldn't have any problems. I replaced the bleed screws with push button bleeders. Push button, bleed forks ride on!

As far as the rear suspension I don't know enough to comment on it other than the fact that the KTM is the smoothest most stable yet radically capable dirt bike I've ever ridden. My bro agrees with that statement he compares the Jap bikes to KTM as a Pinto to a Ferrari. I don't know If I'd go that far but it sure as heck is a sweet handling responsive bike.

I don't know squat about the Husky but it sure as heck looks cool! It ought to be raging dirt converting screamer that's for sure!!

Airhoss

You know I went back read your post again two things really wave a the red flag here.

1. This wasn't a UAL story, not in the least. It was a story about one UAL guy. One out of about 11,000 at the time.

2. You still think that where you went to college and how well you did there means something. It doesn't, you were no more an "industry leader" than any other big talking, ego centric young "bush" pilot who was up in AK building time and thinking he was way cooler than he really was.

I've run into guys with whom I flew with in Ak who are now flying for the majors with not uncommon regularity. I don't know who you were hanging out with up there but it doesn't seem like it was the "industry leader" club.

Wash out

Sky, I've got to agree with you. Somebody needs to be truthful and to tell about the realities of choosing a part 121 aviation career. As a wide eyed college kid, I was excited for my future in aviation and bought the idea that is was worth all the sacrifices. Most folks spoke of the sacrifices, yes, but you would be very hard pressed to find someone who was TRUTHFUL about the nature of the industry at that time, and no APC forums existed then either. I remember being told about opportunity and a strong need for pilots to fill future staffing needs. I get a kick every time this topic comes up, there are the usual responses from the company cheerleaders who seem very sensitive about anything negative about their beloved industry.

FACT... One chooses to invest large sums of money, time, and personal sacrifices to achieve success in this career. Therefore, they should be well informed. APC is a good outlet for inside information. BUT, if you dare to have an opinion that differs from the Co. cheerleaders, you will be called out as bitter, loser, ect. Everyone's ride is different, let them read all points of view and decide for themselves.

USMC, and UPS have had apparently, blessed careers. They need new hires to elevate their seniority for better days off and such. I've seen their type in the crew rooms. I'm sure they spend a lot of time mentoring the new hires .

By the way, I ride a Husqvarna 510TE. It's the shizzle.