How to make the decision: time to hang it up
03-25-2011 | 12:25 PM
#11
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
A real job
I am going thru the same discussion with myself right now. A little of my story...I got hired at a major airline at the age of 30 and all was going to plan. Then like a lot of people; the industry happened and I was out of a job. Luckily I found a new job even before I was furloughed and now I talk to airplanes instead of fly them. I go to work every day in a dark room and stare at a scope. Do you know how bad it sucks to work 5 sometimes 6 days a week every week. Some days I like it and think this is the greatest job ever, but most I am truly unhappy. I thought if I could only go to the same place and be home every night that would be awesome. Imagine how much I could see my family I thought. Well it's not true my wife works a real job and I see her less now then I did when I was flying! Well I am living proof the grass is not always greener. I have a job that comes with good pay, good benefits, and supposedly good job security. So I have started to get myself back in the game. I am not going to quit cold turkey and jump back into flying even if that may be the best way back in. I am going to slowly start flying again and attempt to get back into it and see where life takes me. I have started applying to jobs, but like most the regionals don't work due to the pay. I do have recall rights so that is always an option. Of course who knows when that will happen or maybe after I get out of training in my current job I'll like it a lot more and want to stay. After all that droning on I guess what I am saying is it's a tough decision and even after almost 3 years of being out I am still not sure what path I want to take. Good luck!
A real job is surely a shock to the system of most pilots. We are use to seeing work as play that also comes with a pretend paycheck. My guess is that it will take a few years at your new job before you begin to feel comfortable with the work and to see all the benefits of a normal life.
Skyhigh
03-25-2011 | 12:46 PM
#12
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
Mailman again
I was an aviation and business/finance major in college, so I can not help but to spend time thinking about costs versus benefit and the like. To me choosing a career is probably the biggest investment decisions in ones life. A lot depends upon the performance and direction that your chosen profession takes you in.
An aviation career is an especially huge risk. Not only does it take the cost of a starter house in training and education but most of a decade before a career hopeful begins to get an idea of their career potential. Most of the time it means getting stuck at a regional.
To me the investment demands a better return than what most people get these days. In addition a prudent person would expect a better assurance of making it to someplace that has the earnings potential to pay back all the costs with interest.
To look at it another way suppose your broker talked you into dropped 250K on Enron stock and it fell to zero six months or a decade later. Most investors would be litigiously upset. Flight schools and universities are doing the same thing yet people only shrug and say "oh well. I guess it didn't work out".
A flying career is a costly investment. Not only is it s huge cash outlay but it comes at the very beginning of most peoples adult life. The time value of that investment over the years will have a huge impact on your lifelong standard of living. It demands a huge return on the investment that I just do not see.
In comparison a mailman's only outlay is the time it took to fill out an application and passing a civil service test. If he were to loose his job after a year he can actually afford to say "oh well".
Skyhigh
An aviation career is an especially huge risk. Not only does it take the cost of a starter house in training and education but most of a decade before a career hopeful begins to get an idea of their career potential. Most of the time it means getting stuck at a regional.
To me the investment demands a better return than what most people get these days. In addition a prudent person would expect a better assurance of making it to someplace that has the earnings potential to pay back all the costs with interest.
To look at it another way suppose your broker talked you into dropped 250K on Enron stock and it fell to zero six months or a decade later. Most investors would be litigiously upset. Flight schools and universities are doing the same thing yet people only shrug and say "oh well. I guess it didn't work out".
A flying career is a costly investment. Not only is it s huge cash outlay but it comes at the very beginning of most peoples adult life. The time value of that investment over the years will have a huge impact on your lifelong standard of living. It demands a huge return on the investment that I just do not see.
In comparison a mailman's only outlay is the time it took to fill out an application and passing a civil service test. If he were to loose his job after a year he can actually afford to say "oh well".
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-25-2011 at 01:00 PM.
03-25-2011 | 12:49 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 1
From: 744 CA
And that folks is why Sky is no longer in aviation. He wants a normal life. Who ever got into this business thinking they would have a "normal" life was smoking crack. There is nothing normal about pilot, never was, never will be. Flying jobs where you are home every night with the wife and kids are few and far between. Yep there are a few out there, but they are in the vast minority of positions. Maybe Sky you should have been more honest with yourself about the realities of aviation and how it meshed with your "ideal life". NOBODY begrudges you your current life, just don't begrudge us ours.
As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.
As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.
03-25-2011 | 12:58 PM
#14
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
compensation
And that folks is why Sky is no longer in aviation. He wants a normal life. Who ever got into this business thinking they would have a "normal" life was smoking crack. There is nothing normal about pilot, never was, never will be. Flying jobs where you are home every night with the wife and kids are few and far between. Yep there are a few out there, but they are in the vast minority of positions. Maybe Sky you should have been more honest with yourself about the realities of aviation and how it meshed with your "ideal life". NOBODY begrudges you your current life, just don't begrudge us ours.
As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.
As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.
I never expected a normal life as a pilot but I did expect to gain a return that was worthy of my investment and sacrifice. In addition, if the postal service is a sinking ship then the airlines would be the Titanic. Rusting and on the bottom for some now.
The post office is a government agency that is not going to go bankrupt.
I don't begrudge anyone for their choices. My aim is merely to point out its folly and the consequences that might come from a lifetime as a pilot.
Skyhigh
03-25-2011 | 01:21 PM
#15
Self Employed.
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From: Corporate Pilot
401K and the retirement Myth
At my regional airline a ranking member of management told me that "the 401K matching plan is really a gift to management and to a few senior captains".
His point was that most of the rank and file employees did not contribute even though there was a 5% match from the company. People forget that out of that 72K regional captain salary has to come all the funds needed for retirement.
When you start to crunch the numbers it is a staggering amount. At my airline most did not even begin to contribute until 50 years of age. There just is not enough time left to build the nest egg needed for a fully funded retirement.
Even dedicated 401K savers are exposed to the turmoil of the stock market. Lately that means a loss of value. There is just no way that a 401k is comparable to an old fashioned pension. In my state mailmen, state patrol officers and department of transportation workers are eligible for a government sponsored retirement plan.
At first glance we all would like to discount the career of a government service worker until you take a look at the entirety of what they get. Last weekend I met a guy who was just a few years older than I and was just about to retire after 26 years as a state patrolman. Not only will he get most of his salary for life but he is then able to start a second career as a bailiff.
Soon he will be collecting two paychecks and he is not even 50 years old yet. There is still time for him to retire as a bailiff and possibly get a third paycheck as something else. Throughout the years mailmen and state patrol officers live a modest life but it is one that is sustainable for as long as they need it.
Compensation is much more than what a worker takes home at the end of the month but rather what they benefit from over a lifetime. It pays move overall to deliver the mail or to drive a snowplow then to be a regional airline pilot.
The State Patrolman who I met is going to be retired before most regional airline pilots even start their savings plan.
Skyhigh
His point was that most of the rank and file employees did not contribute even though there was a 5% match from the company. People forget that out of that 72K regional captain salary has to come all the funds needed for retirement.
When you start to crunch the numbers it is a staggering amount. At my airline most did not even begin to contribute until 50 years of age. There just is not enough time left to build the nest egg needed for a fully funded retirement.
Even dedicated 401K savers are exposed to the turmoil of the stock market. Lately that means a loss of value. There is just no way that a 401k is comparable to an old fashioned pension. In my state mailmen, state patrol officers and department of transportation workers are eligible for a government sponsored retirement plan.
At first glance we all would like to discount the career of a government service worker until you take a look at the entirety of what they get. Last weekend I met a guy who was just a few years older than I and was just about to retire after 26 years as a state patrolman. Not only will he get most of his salary for life but he is then able to start a second career as a bailiff.
Soon he will be collecting two paychecks and he is not even 50 years old yet. There is still time for him to retire as a bailiff and possibly get a third paycheck as something else. Throughout the years mailmen and state patrol officers live a modest life but it is one that is sustainable for as long as they need it.
Compensation is much more than what a worker takes home at the end of the month but rather what they benefit from over a lifetime. It pays move overall to deliver the mail or to drive a snowplow then to be a regional airline pilot.
The State Patrolman who I met is going to be retired before most regional airline pilots even start their savings plan.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-25-2011 at 01:38 PM.
03-25-2011 | 02:23 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 1
From: 744 CA
Baltimore -- cutting 250-300 sworn officers
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009
tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...
oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009
tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...
oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%
03-25-2011 | 03:15 PM
#17
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Lay offs
Baltimore -- cutting 250-300 sworn officers
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009
tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...
oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009
tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...
oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%
I think you get the thrust of what I am getting at. No one likes being laid off. An important difference is that state and government agencies usually do not have to lay off while it is the norm in aviation.
Additionally when a government worker is sent home they still retain a portion of their retirement benefits. I was a county firefighter for just under a year and a volunteer for another three years and to my surprise I will be eligible to receive a hundred dollars a month once I reach a retirement age.
Lastly as I have already mentioned a laid off mailman does not have a massive investment associated with his career to pay off.
Skyhigh
03-25-2011 | 04:40 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 1
From: 744 CA
Well in my state ..(and I am a state employee) you dont get **** until you have done at least 8 years of service.
Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.
States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.
Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.
States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.
03-25-2011 | 06:36 PM
#19
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
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From: Corporate Pilot
Every profession has its pitfalls
Well in my state ..(and I am a state employee) you dont get **** until you have done at least 8 years of service.
Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.
States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.
Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.
States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.
If you do not believe me Eagle is hiring.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-26-2011 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Spelling
03-27-2011 | 07:29 AM
#20
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
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From: Corporate Pilot
Why we hate mailmen
The truth hurts:
“The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.” - H.L. Mencken
I borrowed this quote from Fishfreighter. Mailmen are used to tell us the truth about our careers.
Skyhigh
“The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.” - H.L. Mencken
I borrowed this quote from Fishfreighter. Mailmen are used to tell us the truth about our careers.
Skyhigh
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