What did you do after leaving?
03-31-2015, 06:51 AM
#31
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,003
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
JB, how many years of low wages, job swaps, time building and so forth did you endure before you reached the threshold of "good" money (define "good")?
As a rough estimate, I'd say ten years to establish myself, but it was fifteen years to reach turbine equipment. (Does that imply having arrived?).
I've left jobs that paid better to fly equipment that paid less, but offered other things that I wanted, or schedules that I wanted, or a change in circumstance, or a location I preferred, and I've left jobs for better pay but with what some might think of as a downgrade in equipment. Probably the most disparate equipment move I've made was from large heavy equipment to singles, but with a significant pay increase and a drastic increase in time at home.
I've also done a lot of temp and seasonal work, some of which paid very well, and some of which I took simply because I wanted to supplement, or just wanted to do a particular job. I'll confess that I also took a few assignments simply because they gave me a lot of extra time to do other things (presently so assigned, actually). Leaves of absence from one job to do another have been common during my career, which has been a fortunate benefit from doing this type of work.
An important aspect of working in aviation that really has to be stressed is flexibility. It's true that companies merge, downsize, close, furlough, go bankrupt, and all manner of other change and shifting of purpose and scope. It's true that the more experience one has, and the broader one's background, the more capable one is of rolling with those changes, finding other work, moving up the ladder, so to speak.
If one is committed to just a single track or avenue in the industry, one is subject to all the pitfalls that accompany that avenue. The regional path is a tough one if a fledgling aviator intends to stay, even with ample seniority. The schedules are tougher, the pay is less, and the industry is clogged with the same cookie cutter types trying to climb up. The willingness and ability to move, even laterally, to other paths is essential, and those who feel that jumping onto the regional bandwagon, with no other experience or qualifications or background, will fast-track their careers often find themselves dammed or stymied with.
My first jet job was as a corporate pilot in a Sabreliner. The problem was that the department had made some poor choices with the aircraft, and four months after I came aboard, the aircraft was sold and the department closed. I was preparing to close on a house and property in the small town where we moved to take the job, and that all went away. I was left in a small town with no job and no prospects, nowhere near other airports or operations. I began sending resumes; close to a thousand. I began making trips to deliver them in person, and it was on one of those trips that I met the chief pilot of a charter operation and delivered a resume. That was week three without work, and I was hire don the spot to fly a Learjet. I commuted by car for a time, then moved my family up, where we got a small two story house on a lake, in a very idyllic setting.
When I went to the Sabreliner, I'd been flying large four engine aircraft with a very different kind of operation. I made the change to the corporate flying at the time not because I was looking for work, and not because the Sabre paid more. It didn't. It represented more time at home with my family, and I got that in spades with both the Sabre and the Lear jobs.
Point is, there wasn't a period of time when I took my "dream job." Nor a period of strugglging to get there. My wages weren't exceptional when I flew the Grand Canyon, but I met my wife there, and settled into a very picturesque area in a small town. I joined the sheriff's office, substitute taught high school, became involved in the community. I had several sources of income, picked up fire work on the side, and was quite happy. It was an example of one of many jobs along the way that represented high points in my career for this reason or that. Not all the high points were for the same reasons. Family was always a priority.
I didn't start in aviation with the hope of making as much as possible while flying as little as possible. I started in aviation because I loved to fly. My goal then, and now, is to see and do as much of the industry as I can. One regret, if it can be called that, is not taking a blimp position when I had the offer, because it's something I'd like to have experienced but didn't. I've done a lot of other things, however, and hope to do many more. The ride isn't over yet. I took the 747 job not because it represented the pinnacle of my career, but because it was an aircraft that I always wanted to experience, nothing more. I have experienced it, and it's a great aircraft, but I can say the same for many others.
Then again, my goal, unlike skyhigh's, was never to "live like a king." What I can do is look back over my career and say "I'm glad I did that." I'm comfortable with that, as is my family, which doesn't suffer for my work. My employer is quite satisfied with my work, and I'm satisfied with it, too. It's enough.
03-31-2015, 07:55 AM
#32
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
John
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
You've told us about your 20 years of failure, before. Yet you tell us you got in during the late 80's, and have recently told us how hard it was then. Your stories don't add up, not one of them. Lies, all lies.
In 1988 when you say you entered the aviation work force, nobody was getting on with a commuter without 2,500 hours or so. I remember well. Most had to go out and fly night freight, instruct, and do anything they could find to get enough experience to look toward a commuter, and EVERYONE knew it was starvation wage. Your story is very different; either you were the most uninformed, naive person in the aviation community, or your story is all lies. You see, I was there then, too. That is to say, I really was there. You weren't.
You've expounded at great length about the fact that airline pilots were living like kings back then, but the market went bust, leaving you high and dry. Not true. Apparently you don't remember deregulation. do a little research. If you don't remember deregulation, then you don't remember what it was like before that, and you wouldn't know...despite your pontification about king-like wealth and bounty. You simply don't know.
You claim 20 years of experience, and you also claim to have come from a family where everyone was an aviator, and yet you claim at the same time to have been fooled into an aviation career. You've said this frequently, about being tricked into your career; you've often called it "deceived" and "mislead." This, despite having grown up in a family of all aviators, and then you went 20 years, all the while deceived about your career? Hardly.
You can't keep your stories straight, can you? I was especially entertained by your tales of fire experience, because you surely didn't have it, and you had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Did you simply suppose that there wouldn't be anyone around with the experience who knew you were lying, and who would call you out?
So you lie about this experience, and use the lies to attempt to build credibility to decry the industry in which you failed. Not a very intelligent way to make a case, is it? You really should do a little research, first.
20 years of utter failure, and yet you pressed on, and one day the lightbulb simply came on? I don't think so. Not one iota of your story adds up. None of it.
You were 20 years into a career, and yet you were "studying" the careers of hundreds of others around you? Who does that? If you were really studying others around you after 20 years on the job, why is it that none of your information is correct? You couldn't have "studied" very hard, could you?
I'm not upset in the least. I'm not sorry about my past, and not here to whine to the masses. I'm not here to talk about 20 years of abject failure, and to spread sorry and misery, or to rain on anyone's parade. I'm interested in the truth, and you can't own up to it.
I'm not upset at all, but you certainly appear to be. Why else would you be sitting by the gutter in the tatters of a pretend airline uniform telling us to sit with you a while as you share your sorrowful tale of martyrdom?
We've already debunked this one, though you continue to spout it, over and over. With the average national income nearly a third of what you propose as the bare minimum to get by, the vast majority of citizens in the United States manage on far, far less than the numbers you propose. I already provided links to actual sources, with the correct data. The best you can come up with is a pop-rag op ed article ? Where are your two decades of studies? You never could address the links I provided to government sources for income, which clearly showed your assertions to be lies. It's already been posted, so there's no need to turn that leaf over again. You were already shot down in flames on this; repeating the lie over and over doesn't make it true.
My wife stays at home.
Sponsored? Wild foolishness. Entitlement, then?
You wouldn't know about making a successful career or the ability to create one. You have no credibility.
Apparently you don't read well, or simply suffer from difficulty with basic reading comprehension. B747 captain, and a fairly broad range of aviation employment activities that run the gamut from flight instructing to crop dusting to flying fires, law enforcement, ambulance, charter, fractional, corporate, etc. Five FAA certificates. A maintenance experience history longer than my flying, and I've been flying since my mid teens. The only relevant part of any of it, whether it's time spent in Iraq and Afghanistan or flying approaches into Hong Kong in inclement weather, is whatever my current employer needs, at any given time. I work more than one job, and do more than one thing both because it's lucrative, and because I enjoy it. I also enjoy considerable time at home; recently I took a month at home with no other duties to do nothing but write. Why? Because I could. That's what aviation duties do for you, and there is a very wide field of duty from which to choose. Again, something you wouldn't understand.
Am I working for a regional? Not hardly. Nor do I have any need, nor intention of doing so.
Trust fund? Nobody gave me anything. It's been earned every step of the way. Perhaps that was your problem. Far too much a sense of entitlement.
Previously you worked for ------- (a regional) as a FO, I believe, and now you were a 757 FO? You carried on at great length about the inability to get past a first officer position at -------, and your inability to move to ------- Airlines. Was this you?
You claim you were laid off as a 757 FO; many were furloughed or laid off over the past few years (and it would have had to be in the past few years, if you got out of college and started your flying career in 88, and spent 20 years on the job)...so you lost your job during the time when everyone else was losing theirs? I was furloughed, too. You quit aviation, and I went to Iraq and kept flying.
That same time frame, before I went overseas, I was out of work three weeks before picking up duties turning wrenches, which lead to charter, and a check airman position. Airline pilot after airline pilot, freshly furloughed, came by looking for work. I had a single engine night freight position, carrying radioactive materials, available, but often flown in a twin due to weather. None of them took it; they turned up their noses and moved on. They came back not long after, saying they'd take anything, but it was too late. The job was already snapped up by someone who knew better.
That's the difference, you see. Those who quit too easily, who expect life on a silver platter, and those who are willing to get in the trenches and make it work even in the lean times, even in the down times. Not too proud to do whatever it takes. I suspect that if you had any career at all (and given your inconsistencies and your frequent lies, I very much doubt you did), you were typical of those who turned up their noses at the job and moved on, only to find that they weren't going to get fed with the silver spoon.
You rabbet on about the low wages and the inability to raise a family, pay for a car, pay the bills. If you had the slightest inclination what I get even for single engine work (it's six figures), let alone other assignments as well, perhaps you'd be shocked. If so, it wouldn't be because your experience tells you otherwise; you didn't have the experience to know, and you still don't. You never will. You'll never be able to command a salary like that, because you walked away.
I'm not going to break down my finances for you, nor am I going to post a resume; unless you're interested in hiring me, you really have no need to know. Unlike you, I don't spend my time on a semi-public forum posting endlessly about my sad state of affairs and crying to all who would listen about the martyrdom of my failed dreams. Unlike you, I'm living them, and my employers are quite happy with my resume; enough so that they pay me well, treat me well, and I enjoy my jobs. It's a shame that you don't, but perhaps if you hadn't quit, you wouldn't be so unhappy all the time.
How many years will we continue to hear your drivel before you've finally satisfied yourself that you made the right choice? When will your cavalcade of self-affirmation end, that we may no longer year the ignorant preaching about the failure of the industry?
Make no bones about it: the industry didn't fail. YOU did.
In 1988 when you say you entered the aviation work force, nobody was getting on with a commuter without 2,500 hours or so. I remember well. Most had to go out and fly night freight, instruct, and do anything they could find to get enough experience to look toward a commuter, and EVERYONE knew it was starvation wage. Your story is very different; either you were the most uninformed, naive person in the aviation community, or your story is all lies. You see, I was there then, too. That is to say, I really was there. You weren't.
You've expounded at great length about the fact that airline pilots were living like kings back then, but the market went bust, leaving you high and dry. Not true. Apparently you don't remember deregulation. do a little research. If you don't remember deregulation, then you don't remember what it was like before that, and you wouldn't know...despite your pontification about king-like wealth and bounty. You simply don't know.
You claim 20 years of experience, and you also claim to have come from a family where everyone was an aviator, and yet you claim at the same time to have been fooled into an aviation career. You've said this frequently, about being tricked into your career; you've often called it "deceived" and "mislead." This, despite having grown up in a family of all aviators, and then you went 20 years, all the while deceived about your career? Hardly.
You can't keep your stories straight, can you? I was especially entertained by your tales of fire experience, because you surely didn't have it, and you had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Did you simply suppose that there wouldn't be anyone around with the experience who knew you were lying, and who would call you out?
So you lie about this experience, and use the lies to attempt to build credibility to decry the industry in which you failed. Not a very intelligent way to make a case, is it? You really should do a little research, first.
20 years of utter failure, and yet you pressed on, and one day the lightbulb simply came on? I don't think so. Not one iota of your story adds up. None of it.
You were 20 years into a career, and yet you were "studying" the careers of hundreds of others around you? Who does that? If you were really studying others around you after 20 years on the job, why is it that none of your information is correct? You couldn't have "studied" very hard, could you?
I'm not upset in the least. I'm not sorry about my past, and not here to whine to the masses. I'm not here to talk about 20 years of abject failure, and to spread sorry and misery, or to rain on anyone's parade. I'm interested in the truth, and you can't own up to it.
I'm not upset at all, but you certainly appear to be. Why else would you be sitting by the gutter in the tatters of a pretend airline uniform telling us to sit with you a while as you share your sorrowful tale of martyrdom?
We've already debunked this one, though you continue to spout it, over and over. With the average national income nearly a third of what you propose as the bare minimum to get by, the vast majority of citizens in the United States manage on far, far less than the numbers you propose. I already provided links to actual sources, with the correct data. The best you can come up with is a pop-rag op ed article ? Where are your two decades of studies? You never could address the links I provided to government sources for income, which clearly showed your assertions to be lies. It's already been posted, so there's no need to turn that leaf over again. You were already shot down in flames on this; repeating the lie over and over doesn't make it true.
My wife stays at home.
Sponsored? Wild foolishness. Entitlement, then?
You wouldn't know about making a successful career or the ability to create one. You have no credibility.
Apparently you don't read well, or simply suffer from difficulty with basic reading comprehension. B747 captain, and a fairly broad range of aviation employment activities that run the gamut from flight instructing to crop dusting to flying fires, law enforcement, ambulance, charter, fractional, corporate, etc. Five FAA certificates. A maintenance experience history longer than my flying, and I've been flying since my mid teens. The only relevant part of any of it, whether it's time spent in Iraq and Afghanistan or flying approaches into Hong Kong in inclement weather, is whatever my current employer needs, at any given time. I work more than one job, and do more than one thing both because it's lucrative, and because I enjoy it. I also enjoy considerable time at home; recently I took a month at home with no other duties to do nothing but write. Why? Because I could. That's what aviation duties do for you, and there is a very wide field of duty from which to choose. Again, something you wouldn't understand.
Am I working for a regional? Not hardly. Nor do I have any need, nor intention of doing so.
Trust fund? Nobody gave me anything. It's been earned every step of the way. Perhaps that was your problem. Far too much a sense of entitlement.
Previously you worked for ------- (a regional) as a FO, I believe, and now you were a 757 FO? You carried on at great length about the inability to get past a first officer position at -------, and your inability to move to ------- Airlines. Was this you?
You claim you were laid off as a 757 FO; many were furloughed or laid off over the past few years (and it would have had to be in the past few years, if you got out of college and started your flying career in 88, and spent 20 years on the job)...so you lost your job during the time when everyone else was losing theirs? I was furloughed, too. You quit aviation, and I went to Iraq and kept flying.
That same time frame, before I went overseas, I was out of work three weeks before picking up duties turning wrenches, which lead to charter, and a check airman position. Airline pilot after airline pilot, freshly furloughed, came by looking for work. I had a single engine night freight position, carrying radioactive materials, available, but often flown in a twin due to weather. None of them took it; they turned up their noses and moved on. They came back not long after, saying they'd take anything, but it was too late. The job was already snapped up by someone who knew better.
That's the difference, you see. Those who quit too easily, who expect life on a silver platter, and those who are willing to get in the trenches and make it work even in the lean times, even in the down times. Not too proud to do whatever it takes. I suspect that if you had any career at all (and given your inconsistencies and your frequent lies, I very much doubt you did), you were typical of those who turned up their noses at the job and moved on, only to find that they weren't going to get fed with the silver spoon.
You rabbet on about the low wages and the inability to raise a family, pay for a car, pay the bills. If you had the slightest inclination what I get even for single engine work (it's six figures), let alone other assignments as well, perhaps you'd be shocked. If so, it wouldn't be because your experience tells you otherwise; you didn't have the experience to know, and you still don't. You never will. You'll never be able to command a salary like that, because you walked away.
I'm not going to break down my finances for you, nor am I going to post a resume; unless you're interested in hiring me, you really have no need to know. Unlike you, I don't spend my time on a semi-public forum posting endlessly about my sad state of affairs and crying to all who would listen about the martyrdom of my failed dreams. Unlike you, I'm living them, and my employers are quite happy with my resume; enough so that they pay me well, treat me well, and I enjoy my jobs. It's a shame that you don't, but perhaps if you hadn't quit, you wouldn't be so unhappy all the time.
How many years will we continue to hear your drivel before you've finally satisfied yourself that you made the right choice? When will your cavalcade of self-affirmation end, that we may no longer year the ignorant preaching about the failure of the industry?
Make no bones about it: the industry didn't fail. YOU did.
John,
We are all glad for you. I am not here to beat up on guys who have made it to where they want to be, in a flight deck no questions asked.
However plenty of people here want something else/more in their life. They want a solid place to invest themselves and to not have to rely on luck, circumstance, and open ended self sacrifice. Young people face a very different future than the career you have enjoyed. They want more control over where and how they live and to develop interests and relationships outside of aviation. In short they want access to a life.
Lets just agree to be two sides of the coin. You continue to wave the banner and inspire the fodder to advance and I will provide an alternative to those who are looking to get out.
"How many years will we continue to hear your drivel before you've finally satisfied yourself that you made the right choice? When will your cavalcade of self-affirmation end, that we may no longer year the ignorant preaching about the failure of the industry?"
I was here long before you and I will be here long after. Lives need to be saved.
I don't understand what it is that you get out of this exchange. It does not appear that you intend to promote aviation to others as a way of life but rather to justify your own life choices by opposing my positions.
Skyhigh
03-31-2015, 08:31 AM
#33
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
...The regional path is a tough one if a fledgling aviator intends to stay, even with ample seniority. The schedules are tougher, the pay is less, and the industry is clogged with the same cookie cutter types trying to climb up. The willingness and ability to move, even laterally, to other paths is essential, and those who feel that jumping onto the regional bandwagon, with no other experience or qualifications or background, will fast-track their careers often find themselves dammed or stymied with.
You make some great points about flexibility and make the career sound genuinely good. I believe your resilience in the face of numerous setbacks and love of flying is what got you through. The core value love of flying is what I think separates the lifetime flyers from ladder-climbers. Flying is a demanding profession meant for patient devotees, and it has a mildly religious aura about it. You have to be willing to get smacked around to make it work. I have only been a pro pilot for a few years and have already been knocked around several times. I think most of those who try aviation have no idea what they are getting into, and when the thrill finally wears off in 10-20 years they bail out like SkyHigh did to join the many inactive ATPs in the FAA airmen database.
Still, I think they need to hear from people like SH. I have been here reading his posts for as long as I can remember, and while he adds flourishes that are insulting and he spins things the wrong way a lot, I believe he did all the stuff he said he did and only quit following a long and sincere attempt at an aviation career. I do not think he is a "quitter" any more than most people are. In his case, he apparently found peace in not being a pilot, which is indicative. He probably should never have been a pro pilot to begin with. This is not meant as an insult at all, just an observation that in a career as unstable and fickle as this, not everyone will fit in. My point in supporting his message is that despite a sincere interest in flying, even capable persons wash out and the price can be very high during such an attempt. This message in itself will not stop many people, but if it is true then it should be told.
03-31-2015, 09:44 AM
#34
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
For the Love of Flying
Years ago during a simulator session some UAL guys explained to us that they did not study in preparation for recurrent checks or for proficiency because as they explained, "if the company had wanted us to study they would have built credit hours into the schedule for it". Essentially they were not getting paid to study so they were not going to do it.
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh
03-31-2015, 02:32 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 880
[QUOTE=SkyHigh;1853482]Years ago during a simulator session some UAL guys explained to us that they did not study in preparation for recurrent checks or for proficiency because as they explained, "if the company had wanted us to study they would have built credit hours into the schedule for it". Essentially they were not getting paid to study so they were not going to do it.
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh[/QUOTE
Then you made a great decision Sky and I for one, am very happy for you but, in all honesty you are full of so much $% it makes one wonder how you get through a day. Get over it, people have made it in the airline industry and no matter how much you try to convince people otherwise they will continue to make it. Keep up with the half truths and don't acknowledge the obvious successes, you're very good at that.
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh[/QUOTE
Then you made a great decision Sky and I for one, am very happy for you but, in all honesty you are full of so much $% it makes one wonder how you get through a day. Get over it, people have made it in the airline industry and no matter how much you try to convince people otherwise they will continue to make it. Keep up with the half truths and don't acknowledge the obvious successes, you're very good at that.
03-31-2015, 04:31 PM
#36
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,003
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
John,
We are all glad for you. I am not here to beat up on guys who have made it to where they want to be, in a flight deck no questions asked.
We are all glad for you. I am not here to beat up on guys who have made it to where they want to be, in a flight deck no questions asked.
You questioned by qualifications, and given that you've nowhere to go with that tack (as your'e certainly not able to hold me up as one with a failed career, nor a sad outlook thereon), who are you going to try to beat into the sand? You're not here to beat up on guys like me. Who, then?
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Years ago during a simulator session some UAL guys explained to us that they did not study in preparation for recurrent checks or for proficiency because as they explained, "if the company had wanted us to study they would have built credit hours into the schedule for it". Essentially they were not getting paid to study so they were not going to do it.
I don't know anyone that doesn't study before a recurrent. I know many, myself included who have long had the habit of carrying 3X5 cards to study and I don't just wait until a recurrent; I study all the time. I've had long oceanic legs in which the crew spent much of the trip quizzing one another. This is not the act of a hobbyist; it's the act of a professional. I'm expected to show up for recurrent ready and prepared, and I do.
You may have hit the nail on the head, however, regarding your entitlement and the source of your failure in your career. You really do think that your career should have been served to you on a silver platter. It's unprofessional to study, you say, or to prepare, if the company doesn't designate time and pay you to do so. Really? Seriously?
I get trade magazines. I know a lot of pilots that do. I read them. I don't really give a damn what plumbers read. I'm not a plumber. I know a number of cargo pilots who read Cargo World, however, and I get Sport Pilot, Flying, AOPA Pilot, Ag Air Update, AMT Magazine (mechanics), Professional Pilot, Trade A Plane, and a number of other publications. I read them. I also subscribe to some pubs without advertising, which are excellent, such as Light Plane Maintenance and Aviation Consumer, as well as several aviation job subscription sites.
Perhaps to you a professional is never studying. If so, you were never a professional. A professional is constantly studying, constantly seeking continuing education, and constantly reviewing what he or she is already responsible to know. This includes regulation as well as aircraft systems, limitations, procedures, and so on.
You honestly believe that the hallmark of a professional is not needing to study? We may have finally located the depths of your failure; we've plumbed the bottom and learned why you couldn't make it as a professional. Not only did you fail to take responsibility for your own career progression, but you also failed to take responsibility as a pilot. That is a failing that is unacceptable under any circumstance. If you behaved and believed as you've just said, then it's a very good thing for us all that the cockpit is finally rid of you.
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I was here long before you and I will be here long after. Lives need to be saved.
You can type until your fingers bleed about your martyrdom, but the only lives that are safer are the ones not riding in a cockpit manned by you. For that, we may all say thanks.
Not a word comes from you that's the truth, as once again we see. Consistently wrong in every respect. One would nearly do well to act exactly the opposite of what skyhigh advocates, and would be on a path to success.
Last edited by JohnBurke; 03-31-2015 at 04:44 PM.
03-31-2015, 04:49 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Sky's message is no more true than JB's message then.
Two sides of the coin.
If Sky denies being 'doom and gloom', then who is he to call JB a 'banner waiver'
Seems Sky is as intolerant of others as some are of him.
Two sides of the coin.
If Sky denies being 'doom and gloom', then who is he to call JB a 'banner waiver'
Seems Sky is as intolerant of others as some are of him.
04-02-2015, 06:39 AM
#38
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Hey there
[QUOTE=brianb;1853654]
Brianb,
Buddy, Hey there. I don't bemoan trust fund kids for having a little fun.
"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.” - John Adams
Your parents earned it you might as well enjoy it. What I can't abide by are the suburban kids who are lured into going six figures in debt for a dream that most likely can not be for them. Lambs to the slaughter. You can always go back to work at the furniture store if you want to. Guys like me do not have sponsorship or a safety net. We have to go down with the ship.
What I meant was that I have been at APC long before most anyone here and I am not so sure that I have not been flying before you either. I can't believe that someone who is my age or older could possibly hold such youthful views of the world.
Skyhigh
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Years ago during a simulator session some UAL guys explained to us that they did not study in preparation for recurrent checks or for proficiency because as they explained, "if the company had wanted us to study they would have built credit hours into the schedule for it". Essentially they were not getting paid to study so they were not going to do it.
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh[/QUOTE
Then you made a great decision Sky and I for one, am very happy for you but, in all honesty you are full of so much $% it makes one wonder how you get through a day. Get over it, people have made it in the airline industry and no matter how much you try to convince people otherwise they will continue to make it. Keep up with the half truths and don't acknowledge the obvious successes, you're very good at that.
The prospective of aviation was more professional and not the working hobbyist/religious zealot as it is today. When I started aviation my aim was that of a professional practitioner and not as a starry eyed dreamer. It was the same as with my peers and instructors. They told us that "getting there is not half the fun but all of it". It was common knowledge that flying part 121 was boring, unfulfilling, and completely void of fun. One did it for the wages, benefits and access to a better life. Any suggestion that the job was "fun" was scab talk.
Had we known that aviation was going to devolve into a martyrs paradise none of us would have taken our first lesson. We had lives and dreams to provide for. So long as people will accept as compensation "fun" flying will continue to loose ground as successive generations come prepared to undercut the previous one just to get into the saddle.
Old union pilots would not do anything more than what they were paid to do. Plumbers don't subscribe to "Plumbers World" magazine nor do they do anything for free and that is the attitude of a professional. You set the value of your worth.
Skyhigh[/QUOTE
Then you made a great decision Sky and I for one, am very happy for you but, in all honesty you are full of so much $% it makes one wonder how you get through a day. Get over it, people have made it in the airline industry and no matter how much you try to convince people otherwise they will continue to make it. Keep up with the half truths and don't acknowledge the obvious successes, you're very good at that.
Buddy, Hey there. I don't bemoan trust fund kids for having a little fun.
"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.” - John Adams
Your parents earned it you might as well enjoy it. What I can't abide by are the suburban kids who are lured into going six figures in debt for a dream that most likely can not be for them. Lambs to the slaughter. You can always go back to work at the furniture store if you want to. Guys like me do not have sponsorship or a safety net. We have to go down with the ship.
What I meant was that I have been at APC long before most anyone here and I am not so sure that I have not been flying before you either. I can't believe that someone who is my age or older could possibly hold such youthful views of the world.
Skyhigh
04-19-2015, 09:25 AM
#39
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 22
Back to the topic...
I left for ATC. I think it was a smart move, stable, good pay, retirement, benefits, home life, etc. I left 135 flying in South Florida for this opportunity. I'm single and 27, yet I miss being in the flight levels and seeing new places everyday. I feel like I was born to fly and thinking about going back to it... Is that crazy?
I left for ATC. I think it was a smart move, stable, good pay, retirement, benefits, home life, etc. I left 135 flying in South Florida for this opportunity. I'm single and 27, yet I miss being in the flight levels and seeing new places everyday. I feel like I was born to fly and thinking about going back to it... Is that crazy?
04-19-2015, 01:40 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
Originally Posted by scubaash
Back to the topic...
I left for ATC. I think it was a smart move, stable, good pay, retirement, benefits, home life, etc. I left 135 flying in South Florida for this opportunity. I'm single and 27, yet I miss being in the flight levels and seeing new places everyday. I feel like I was born to fly and thinking about going back to it... Is that crazy?
I left for ATC. I think it was a smart move, stable, good pay, retirement, benefits, home life, etc. I left 135 flying in South Florida for this opportunity. I'm single and 27, yet I miss being in the flight levels and seeing new places everyday. I feel like I was born to fly and thinking about going back to it... Is that crazy?
I'm a little surprised to hear a single 20-some year old without dependents making the homesteading argument. If you had reservations about the lifestyle of a commercial pilot as a single dude, brother those reservations are not going to go away when the wife and kids show up; they're going to be accentuated.
As to making a go at flying again, you're looking at having to find a benefactor, at least until you can make a bid for a mainline job. Even in this day and age, American women still act fairly entitled to the idea their husbands should make more than they do, and they're equally averse to the idea of bankrolling a man the way us men are expected to. So it's uphill for the regional guys. Intending to be a future head-of-household as as a regional FO or low-end 135 income pilot, without a well-to-do wife, is fairly irresponsible in my opinion, especially with an ATC job in the bag. Good luck whatever you decide. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about piston aircraft ownership.
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