Hand Flying policy
12-02-2017, 05:57 PM
#181
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by thevagabond
Only for the guys who try to dent runways everywhere they go. There's no SOP at my shop requiring A/P usage except for low visibility and ceiling days during approaches. I suspect that's industry standard. Some captains such as myself are going to encourage hand flying and give you a pat on the back for doing it. Others, or so I've been told, will fidget nervously and make stupid comments about not being able to relax and having to work while they reach up and press and twist things on the guidance panel. You're mileage is going to vary. When hand flying with one of those joys to fly with make sure you click off the autothrottles too! Nearly stops their hearts every time I've been told. And there is definitely a correlation between smooth landings and amount of autopilot usage.
Thanks for the insight! So much A/P usage and automation will take some getting used to in my case.
12-02-2017, 08:49 PM
#182
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
For me on the line, I have to have a reason to turn the automation on for an approach, otherwise it's AP and AT off each approach, and for visual patterns FD off as well.
Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.
Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.
12-03-2017, 06:10 AM
#183
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by Dirty30
So, what I'm picking up by this it's that switching on the A/P shortly after departure and switching it off on final is pretty much an SOP on a 121 airline. What exactly are you taught in training? Aside from handling emergencies. How much hand flying do you actually do in training? I'm curious about how these carriers work since I'm just starting to get ready to apply to the regionals after my AD orders.
The good thing is that with SOP on your side, you can presume to do what you want, and let the other guy stop you only if he decides to. And if he's too stifling, you just do what he wants, finish out the trip, and the next one is a clean slate.
How much hand flying in training? Virtually none. I remember some steep turns, climbs, and descents in the first sim session, and then onward to all the box checking. Later on I think I had to do a total of 2 hand flown approaches, one normal and one on the standby gyro. Of course, AP can be on until level on the final approach course. Because it would be too hard otherwise, and you might need to try it a few times before checking the box. (As if your first success at a task should be enough to establish mastery, anyway!)
The only instruction about flying the plane I got was a rule of thumb about power setting on final (that's really pretty useless with the AP off) and a comment about the reverse thrust-pitch couple. Both of these being off the cuff technique tidbits from the instructor, and not a part of the curriculum.
Nothing about:
- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes
... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.
---
Since the beginning I've heard many times about how the biggest consistent problem our LCA's are seeing in trainees and on the line, is visual approaches. OK, I think. So what are they doing about it? Here's my window into what's being done about it. One time I fly a visual approach, where our gate for having the gear down is 1000 AGL. I lower the gear some time before that, meet all of our stabilization criteria, and the approach goes fine. Afterward, the CA says that he doesn't really care personally, but if I did that on a line check I would get tuned up because I didn't lower the gear 3-5 miles before the FAF, which is our ILS profile! So "backed up by the ILS" functionally just means "fly the ILS," and the company is evidently flogging people to fly the ILS when cleared for the visual, instead of simply looking at the runway and flying toward a point a few miles short of it... AKA, you know, flying a visual?
If this is the solution, the problem will only get worse.
Last edited by vessbot; 12-03-2017 at 06:36 AM.
12-03-2017, 06:49 AM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by vessbot
Nothing about:
- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes
... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.
- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes
... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.
Whenever I get a new type rating, I try to get some extra time in the sim to get these numbers. One way is to put the airplane on a glideslope at 250 knots pull the power to idle and configure normally. Then find out how much altitude and distance it took to slow and what power setting holds approach speed. Now repeat with an engine shutdown. Figure out pitch and power for level flight at low, medium, & high altitudes and now you have ballpark numbers you can use. It takes about 10 minutes but 90% of the time the instructors advises against it so I usually have to wait until I'm on the line to figure it out
12-03-2017, 07:17 AM
#185
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by vessbot
Not SOP, just the common practice. Fortunately, for all my complaints about the culture, our actual SOP is quite liberal. The only time autopilot is required is Cat II, RVSM, and PRM (if available.)
The good thing is that with SOP on your side, you can presume to do what you want, and let the other guy stop you only if he decides to. And if he's too stifling, you just do what he wants, finish out the trip, and the next one is a clean slate.
How much hand flying in training? Virtually none. I remember some steep turns, climbs, and descents in the first sim session, and then onward to all the box checking. Later on I think I had to do a total of 2 hand flown approaches, one normal and one on the standby gyro. Of course, AP can be on until level on the final approach course. Because it would be too hard otherwise, and you might need to try it a few times before checking the box. (As if your first success at a task should be enough to establish mastery, anyway!)
The only instruction about flying the plane I got was a rule of thumb about power setting on final (that's really pretty useless with the AP off) and a comment about the reverse thrust-pitch couple. Both of these being off the cuff technique tidbits from the instructor, and not a part of the curriculum.
Nothing about:
- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes
... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.
---
Since the beginning I've heard many times about how the biggest consistent problem our LCA's are seeing in trainees and on the line, is visual approaches. OK, I think. So what are they doing about it? Here's my window into what's being done about it. One time I fly a visual approach, where our gate for having the gear down is 1000 AGL. I lower the gear some time before that, meet all of our stabilization criteria, and the approach goes fine. Afterward, the CA says that he doesn't really care personally, but if I did that on a line check I would get tuned up because I didn't lower the gear 3-5 miles before the FAF, which is our ILS profile! So "backed up by the ILS" functionally just means "fly the ILS," and the company is evidently flogging people to fly the ILS when cleared for the visual, instead of simply looking at the runway and flying toward a point a few miles short of it... AKA, you know, flying a visual?
If this is the solution, the problem will only get worse.
The good thing is that with SOP on your side, you can presume to do what you want, and let the other guy stop you only if he decides to. And if he's too stifling, you just do what he wants, finish out the trip, and the next one is a clean slate.
How much hand flying in training? Virtually none. I remember some steep turns, climbs, and descents in the first sim session, and then onward to all the box checking. Later on I think I had to do a total of 2 hand flown approaches, one normal and one on the standby gyro. Of course, AP can be on until level on the final approach course. Because it would be too hard otherwise, and you might need to try it a few times before checking the box. (As if your first success at a task should be enough to establish mastery, anyway!)
The only instruction about flying the plane I got was a rule of thumb about power setting on final (that's really pretty useless with the AP off) and a comment about the reverse thrust-pitch couple. Both of these being off the cuff technique tidbits from the instructor, and not a part of the curriculum.
Nothing about:
- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes
... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.
---
Since the beginning I've heard many times about how the biggest consistent problem our LCA's are seeing in trainees and on the line, is visual approaches. OK, I think. So what are they doing about it? Here's my window into what's being done about it. One time I fly a visual approach, where our gate for having the gear down is 1000 AGL. I lower the gear some time before that, meet all of our stabilization criteria, and the approach goes fine. Afterward, the CA says that he doesn't really care personally, but if I did that on a line check I would get tuned up because I didn't lower the gear 3-5 miles before the FAF, which is our ILS profile! So "backed up by the ILS" functionally just means "fly the ILS," and the company is evidently flogging people to fly the ILS when cleared for the visual, instead of simply looking at the runway and flying toward a point a few miles short of it... AKA, you know, flying a visual?
If this is the solution, the problem will only get worse.
12-03-2017, 07:20 AM
#186
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
Some time ago, training departments decided providing pitch and power settings to fly a plane was not a good idea. The thought process is if you provide pitch and power settings they will blindly follow them. But if the aircraft is at an unusual weight or the airport is on a plateau, then those numbers won't work and the bottom 10% of pilots won't realize that.
Whenever I get a new type rating, I try to get some extra time in the sim to get these numbers. One way is to put the airplane on a glideslope at 250 knots pull the power to idle and configure normally. Then find out how much altitude and distance it took to slow and what power setting holds approach speed. Now repeat with an engine shutdown. Figure out pitch and power for level flight at low, medium, & high altitudes and now you have ballpark numbers you can use. It takes about 10 minutes but 90% of the time the instructors advises against it so I usually have to wait until I'm on the line to figure it out
Whenever I get a new type rating, I try to get some extra time in the sim to get these numbers. One way is to put the airplane on a glideslope at 250 knots pull the power to idle and configure normally. Then find out how much altitude and distance it took to slow and what power setting holds approach speed. Now repeat with an engine shutdown. Figure out pitch and power for level flight at low, medium, & high altitudes and now you have ballpark numbers you can use. It takes about 10 minutes but 90% of the time the instructors advises against it so I usually have to wait until I'm on the line to figure it out
12-03-2017, 07:26 AM
#187
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 419
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
For me on the line, I have to have a reason to turn the automation on for an approach, otherwise it's AP and AT off each approach, and for visual patterns FD off as well.
Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.
Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.
I award you one Ship Venti White Chocolate Mocha!
12-03-2017, 03:07 PM
#190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,297
Originally Posted by Dirty30
Thanks for the insight! So much A/P usage and automation will take some getting used to in my case.
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