SpeedyVagabond

This is basic attitude instrument flying. There is no excuse for airline pilots to ever lose an aircraft in this situation. It demonstrates a deep lack of understanding of systems by the two who were up front when the icing occurred. A good example of why flight times in general are a poor metric for measuring a pilot's skill. 1500 hours of instructing doesn't even come close to equaling a few hundred hours of single pilot 135 time in winter or a military flight program. That's why the ATP knee jerk reaction to Buffalo is just nonsense. It's not the time, it's the experience. And why I said earlier I believe we're going to see an uptick in incidents and accidents.

detpilot

As someone who has quite literally done all 3 of the above, I disagree. For reference, I instructed first for over 1200 hours, then did 135 freight, then joined the military.

Maybe, since I was doing a mix of vfr and IFR and high performance/complex instruction, my results aren't typical. But I got a solid knowledge base from that, which helped me succeed in part 135 cargo. Night flying in weather with no autopilot every single weeknight, with a company pushing you to go go go was huge, and solidified my stick and rudder skills.

But... The military. I was shocked at how often we weather cancel, and how much we prefer to train on good weather days. Sure, when you deploy to the desert there are a few days of fog and rain a year. But I bet most military jet pilots who have done nothing else have very rarely had to deal with the icing decisions, divert decisions, and other issues that even some instructors are dealing with. So let's quit crapping on the civilian cfi's, not all of them are just beating up the pattern.

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sACKtis

Handflying an airbus above 2000' is just retarded. Tapping on a sidestick does not equate to a perishable skill.

ItnStln

Thanks for the explanation! Do I understand you to say that the difference between the two incidents started when the Air France crew pulled back on the stick whereas the Nodthwest crew didn't?

Pogey Bait

Nice set of skills to grab from, what did you fly in the military?

SpeedyVagabond

Interesting. I grew up the son of a Navy Vietnam era attack and later medium attack pilot. The Navy cerainly operates in all weather. At least my father's platforms did so I was using his experiences and the expereriences of my own personal acquaintences from that community I've flown with through the years. That certainly is a nice mix of experience you have to draw on. I'll continue to disagree with you however on the value of civilian instructor time alone based on my own many personal observations and lengthy experience in 121 operations.

Adlerdriver

I agree that a well trained CFI is gaining valuable experience. However, your comments on the military are too broad brush. Weather, icing, diverts are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to decision making in the wide variety of military missions. But focusing on those for the sake of discussion, sure, some may be able to avoid those situations. Dealing with weather is highly dependent on location. Guys stationed in Vegas or Luke probably rarely have to bother. However, there are plenty of worldwide location where it's a constant factor. Also, VFR or IFR, gas is ALWAYS a factor in a fighter. Every mission you're minutes from a divert if someone takes out your primary runway with a blown tire or takes a cable. I was stationed in Europe for 5 years and if we cancelled because the weather was bad, we never would have flown. I've taken off at mins, popped out at 2K to a clear above, beautiful day, had a great fight and RTB'd to an approach to absolute mins.

Of course there are weather cancels and training on good weather days is always more desirable. The main decision that goes into launching isn't simply bad weather at the base. It is more about is there a mission worth dealing with that bad weather. If none of the airspace is clear, there's not much point in launching. In a gas limited fighter, there's a point where even if the weather in the area is okay, fuel required for a distant alternate makes it pointless to go. However, I've still diverted more times than I can count. So, I think it's safe to say that there are plenty of decision making opportunities and issues, weather related or something else, available for most pilots gaining experience in whatever role they have chosen.

BFMthisA10

So, the Military is too risk averse? In training? Seems like the textbook application of ORM. A revenue operation is going to have an entirely different approach to the question, but while wearing a green romper, I’ve never felt unprepared to execute in the worst conditions, or an unnecessary pressure to perform when the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze (training environment).

Adlerdriver

IMO, an attitude very common with those who try to find an excuse for maximum use of automation.

When the situation allowed, I flew the A320 with autopilot, throttles and even F/D off on a regular basis. Never "tapped" on the stick though. Just smooth, don't spill the coffee inputs. I felt it was extremely valuable. Anything requiring hand/eye coordination always improves with practice and familiarity. It doesn't make a difference if your flight controls move via cable or electron.

Adlerdriver

As far as physical control inputs, that would appear to be correct, don't you agree? My guess is the situations diverged even before that when the NW crew recognizing the situation and applying basic pilot skills/knowledge.