2017 W2 Earnings
01-05-2018, 06:13 AM
#201
Layover Master
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,311
Originally Posted by Turbosina
This thread is fascinating. In nearly every other profession in the US it's pretty much verboten to discuss compensation with anyone other than one's spouse, and here folks are posting their W2s. Not a criticism, just an observation.
I gotta say, though, folks. Speaking as someone who spent 20+ years in the corporate (non-aviation world) before taking on a second job at a regional airline because I figured 7K hours of piston flying was enough, we airline pilots have it really, really good.
In my day job — which I'm able to do because I bid weekend flying and split-duty trips during weeknights — I work in advertising. Actually, I run my own 50-person company. In this field, like just about any other corporate pursuit, the very concept of a job that requires one to work 100-150 days per year, and potentially earn compensation in the $300-$500K range, is simply unheard of. You'd be laughed out of any corporate interview (including mine) if you suggested a deal like that.
Typically in the higher echelons of corporate America you'll work about 2,300--2,500 hours per year, which translates into approximately 230-250 days 'worked.' (Then again, you're really 'working' every day, even if it's just three hours on a Sunday. There is no concept of 'off' days anymore...you are chained to your smartphone.)
Whereas, in aviation, when you block in and walk off the airplane, you're done. Aside from a few quarterly online training tasks — which we all do on our overnights or during Airport Appreciation time anyways — and aside from some brushup studying for recurrent, there's almost nothing we have to do when we're not on a trip. At this income level, it's impossible to have that kind of arrangement in corporate America.
All I'm saying is, we pilots are good at complaining. The food, the van times, the flow delays, management, contracts, dispatch, MX, catering, crew scheduling, reserve assignments...we'll complain about it all. But for those of you who had to suffer through a non-airline career before you put on your stripes, you know what I'm talking about. This is the Best. Job. In. The. World.*
*Until, of course, the proverbial **** hits the fan, which is what pilots are really paid for. And the consequences of errors in that situation are far greater than errors made by, let's say, a VP of Marketing in some corner office somewhere. So there's that.
All I'm saying is — compared to the vast, vast majority of professionals, we pilots (well, you major airline pilots, to be specific) have it really, really good. Next time you're up in the flight levels, just think about what you could be doing instead — like most people, sitting in a grey cubicle, working twice as much for half the pay.
Maybe that will make that involuntary extension into your day off, or the hotel van showing up 30 minutes late when you've just spent 16 hours slogging across the country in the middle of Snowmageddon, sting a bit less
I gotta say, though, folks. Speaking as someone who spent 20+ years in the corporate (non-aviation world) before taking on a second job at a regional airline because I figured 7K hours of piston flying was enough, we airline pilots have it really, really good.
In my day job — which I'm able to do because I bid weekend flying and split-duty trips during weeknights — I work in advertising. Actually, I run my own 50-person company. In this field, like just about any other corporate pursuit, the very concept of a job that requires one to work 100-150 days per year, and potentially earn compensation in the $300-$500K range, is simply unheard of. You'd be laughed out of any corporate interview (including mine) if you suggested a deal like that.
Typically in the higher echelons of corporate America you'll work about 2,300--2,500 hours per year, which translates into approximately 230-250 days 'worked.' (Then again, you're really 'working' every day, even if it's just three hours on a Sunday. There is no concept of 'off' days anymore...you are chained to your smartphone.)
Whereas, in aviation, when you block in and walk off the airplane, you're done. Aside from a few quarterly online training tasks — which we all do on our overnights or during Airport Appreciation time anyways — and aside from some brushup studying for recurrent, there's almost nothing we have to do when we're not on a trip. At this income level, it's impossible to have that kind of arrangement in corporate America.
All I'm saying is, we pilots are good at complaining. The food, the van times, the flow delays, management, contracts, dispatch, MX, catering, crew scheduling, reserve assignments...we'll complain about it all. But for those of you who had to suffer through a non-airline career before you put on your stripes, you know what I'm talking about. This is the Best. Job. In. The. World.*
*Until, of course, the proverbial **** hits the fan, which is what pilots are really paid for. And the consequences of errors in that situation are far greater than errors made by, let's say, a VP of Marketing in some corner office somewhere. So there's that.
All I'm saying is — compared to the vast, vast majority of professionals, we pilots (well, you major airline pilots, to be specific) have it really, really good. Next time you're up in the flight levels, just think about what you could be doing instead — like most people, sitting in a grey cubicle, working twice as much for half the pay.
Maybe that will make that involuntary extension into your day off, or the hotel van showing up 30 minutes late when you've just spent 16 hours slogging across the country in the middle of Snowmageddon, sting a bit less
Keep in mind many of of us have been through one, two or more bankruptcies or furloughs. This results in losing ALL seniority and ALL pay, and essentially starting your career over at 30, at 40, at 50 years old. There are no commensurate lateral moves.
And of course this is all predicated on majors. Thousands of us are trying desperately to get hired at that level and can’t. Meanwhile we get 11 days off guaranteed, get extended, and spend 18-20 nights a month on the road. Yeah, great job.
Point is, yes, it can be great at THAT level, but 80% of professional flying jobs are underpaid, overworked, dangerous, just plain awful or all the above.
Keeping my apps updated and hoping to not go through another furlough or downgrade.....
01-05-2018, 06:48 AM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: A-320
Posts: 680
Originally Posted by sherpster
When I am working I am gone for 24 hours, not 8. The majority of Americans would not take this job because of the time spent away from home in hotel rooms. Thats what we are getting paid for.
As an additional counterpoint, I have flirted with taking a non flying 9-5 job that pays significantly less because guess what? My wife would be easier for my wife to work because I would home on a regular basis everyday, I could plan things weeks in advance, and my life would be more consistent allowing me to participate in a lot of activitites that I currently struggle to do (coaching my kids sports teams for example).
As an additional counterpoint, I have flirted with taking a non flying 9-5 job that pays significantly less because guess what? My wife would be easier for my wife to work because I would home on a regular basis everyday, I could plan things weeks in advance, and my life would be more consistent allowing me to participate in a lot of activitites that I currently struggle to do (coaching my kids sports teams for example).
Turbosina - Our pay rates are posted on APC for the world to see. This never hapens in the corporate world because people negotiate higher salaries for the same job, would make others bitter.
01-05-2018, 07:31 AM
#203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 694
Turbosina,
Don’t sell yourself short. Not my first career, and even making good money, there are countless neighborhoods I’m priced out of... i.e. we are not the only industry or line of work that is appropriately compensated. Look around you. The job has it’s easy moment. It also has countless moments where our necessary level of expertise and training is called upon and necessitates a correct series of decisions in the moment and not after several minutes consideration. That, and the level of continued proficiency, self study and improvement that’s required of us is worth more than you may causally think it is.
Don’t sell yourself short. Not my first career, and even making good money, there are countless neighborhoods I’m priced out of... i.e. we are not the only industry or line of work that is appropriately compensated. Look around you. The job has it’s easy moment. It also has countless moments where our necessary level of expertise and training is called upon and necessitates a correct series of decisions in the moment and not after several minutes consideration. That, and the level of continued proficiency, self study and improvement that’s required of us is worth more than you may causally think it is.
01-05-2018, 09:00 AM
#204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
I love when guys devalue the profession
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
01-05-2018, 09:18 AM
#205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
I love when guys devalue the profession
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
Exactly. It also shows that the hourly rate published is not the entire picture.
01-05-2018, 09:44 AM
#206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Straight outta LoCash
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
I love when guys devalue the profession
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
On a serious note. My opinion is that compensation is a taboo discussion in other lines of work because employers make it that way in an effort to suppress wages. If everyone got it out the open it would enable others to have a much stronger negotiating leg to stand on. Which is exactly what this thread is here. You can see the good and the bad at other carriers enabling your group to know what they could or should add to the next round of negotiations or help you as individual make a better choice to switch carriers if you are still deep on the seniority list.
Sure it was taboo at one time, but it's just not anymore.
Of course, none of what I just said about using compensation to attract and retain talent applies to aviation.
01-05-2018, 11:11 AM
#207
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,656
Sure, those at the majors have it pretty good.
What did it take to get there? For most of us, it’s at the apex of our careers. In my generation, we suffered 9/11 and the lost decade. I spent nearly a decade as a regional FO making less than today’s starting wage, survived furloughs, moved to corporate for nearly another decade, and only in the last two years made it to a major.
My overall earnings are still lower than many desk gigs.
Yes, we are compensated well...but if people are envious of our pay, they should go to flight school.
What did it take to get there? For most of us, it’s at the apex of our careers. In my generation, we suffered 9/11 and the lost decade. I spent nearly a decade as a regional FO making less than today’s starting wage, survived furloughs, moved to corporate for nearly another decade, and only in the last two years made it to a major.
My overall earnings are still lower than many desk gigs.
Yes, we are compensated well...but if people are envious of our pay, they should go to flight school.
01-05-2018, 11:24 AM
#209
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by Turbosina
This thread is fascinating. In nearly every other profession in the US it's pretty much verboten to discuss compensation with anyone other than one's spouse, and here folks are posting their W2s. Not a criticism, just an observation.
So one thought: is glassdoor.com not relevant? When I left my prior line of work to chase the airline ladder it was starting to become relevant, at least in high-tech, and appeared to be quite accurate. For those motivated to hop around from company to company, I did witness some folks willing to discuss salary and other compensation with their peers.
Ok since I am on this thread, my turn:
1) VX,
2) FO
3) A320
4) year 1/2 (rate: 52, mostly 85, then 122 after the AS JCBA arbitration)
5) I work the minimum when ever possible without bidding reserve. Actively try to swap trips for more productive that I cannot hold in my line, but don't give up days off.
6) Not too many overnights, mostly 1-3 day trips. Prefer 2. Drive a little ways to work.
7) 630 block
8) Unsure of credit, but there was some soft time, sick time, vacation, training, usual stuff.
9) $82K and change gross for the year
10) $4.2K profit sharing (included above), $4.5K per diem and other stipends (not incl above), 9.1K to 401K
= 96K total.
Also took about a month off unpaid FMLA. I don't pick up, with a couple of exceptions for helping out the reduced paychecks from taking leave.
Anticipate about 150-160K total in 2018. HOWEVER, the lifestyle will start to take a serious hit based on what I see from Alaska scheduling. Its like a half step back towards the regional world.
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