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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 2959622)
If we were on the same team then why do the major unions allow regional pilots to be treated so poorly as compared to the major pilots?
Groupthink is idiotic. |
Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 2959622)
If we were on the same team then why do the major unions allow regional pilots to be treated so poorly as compared to the major pilots?
Groupthink is idiotic. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2959649)
Major unions don’t negotiate contracts for regionals nor can they legally do so. The current career track for young pilots is vastly improved from the days when you flight instructed to 1000 hours, then got a job flying solo all night in a piston twin with a load of checks for 10 bucks an hour and finally were able to move to a regional turboprop operator for 18 bucks an hour after you had 3000 total hours and 1000 multi.
:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2960987)
Walking uphill BOTH WAYS IN THE SNOW...
:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by badflaps
(Post 2961323)
And if you are in Chicago, there is a chance you could be chomped by a coyote.
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[QUOTE=Voski;2918173]What is the viability of the ultra-low cost carrier model in the U.S.? As companies like Spirit and Frontier continue to expand their fleet of A320neo aircraft, the profitability of these airlines in the current U.S. economy is undeniable. However, what are the pros and cons of their business model going forward? Are they a threat to the market share and dominance of the legacy carriers?
I'm genuinely interested because the model seems to be successful throughout Europe, however, I wonder if the ULCC model is filling a gap in the market or if it's eroding the profits of carriers like Delta, United, and American. Moreover, pilots seeking jobs at major carriers have a lot of options nowadays and will hopefully continue to see a hot job market for a few years ahead. The ULCCs seem like great options and alternatives to the 'Big 6,' but I have to question whether these airlines have the career stability (as much as that exists in the airlines) that the Big 6 have...[/QUOTE |
The ULCCs certainly provide a nice alternative career to the Big boys.
With so much industry consolidation there are fewer career airlines than there used to be. I strongly believe that the remaining few big airlines are stronger and will survive any recession and provide better job security than in the past. However, there's less choices now then there used to be. If you botch the Hogan at United and fail your Delta interview, your choices become very limited very fast. Anyhow, I think the ULCCs will grow thru the next recession while the big airlines slow or stop growth. ULCCs are proving to be very successful all over the world. Just not in the long haul markets. And for the record, the ULCCs claim to be generating new traffic and not stealing from other airline |
Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2961425)
. ULCCs are proving to be very successful all over the world.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2961487)
Not really in Europe, except Ryanair which as sort of established itself as the budget SWA over there. Many of the rest are falling like flies (their legacies aren't all doing so great either).
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The long haul low cost airlines really struggle. The short haul ones seem to do well. Ryan, Easy and Wizz have completely changed the entire market in Europe
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2961487)
Not really in Europe, except Ryanair which as sort of established itself as the budget SWA over there. Many of the rest are falling like flies (their legacies aren't all doing so great either).
Speaking to your second point- yes some of the smaller ULCC’s in euroland aren’t doing so hot. But the larger ones are killllllling it. 500 million in profit? Some of the dumber ideas- crossing oceans and relying on POS with no network to fill 1 flight a day is dumb. But if Ryanair, Wizz or EasyJet decided to harness that network they run and send 5 XLR’s to say NYC, ORD, MIA, PHL and BOS a day, ohhh lord would the big 3 have a problem. Same can be said for F9/NK. Give it about 5 years and some economic heartburn, I think the legacy’s will start to hurt. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2961487)
Not really in Europe, except Ryanair which as sort of established itself as the budget SWA over there. Many of the rest are falling like flies (their legacies aren't all doing so great either).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnfoTAxhpzQ |
Thanks for the YouTube video. That guy makes some great videos.
The similarity between Ryanair and Southwest is their domestic market dominance, not their business model. I've always argued that there really isn't a Southwest in Europe. It's Legacies and ULCCs. Frontier and Spirit management always likes to talk about how the ULCC market share in Europe is like 40% (or whatever they claim) and therefore F9 and NK can grow to that level. The only problem with that argument is the existence of Southwest. I am a huge believer in the ULCCs here in the US and I'm betting my career on it, but we're never going to be as big as the ULCCs in Europe are. Southwest occupies too much domestic market share for us to get that big. I think the ULCCs will definitely grow a lot here, but will never be a dominant player |
Originally Posted by Aviatormar
(Post 2961577)
Other than airplane type, how do you compare these 2 companies?
Originally Posted by Aviatormar
(Post 2961577)
Speaking to your second point- yes some of the smaller ULCC’s in euroland aren’t doing so hot. But the larger ones are killllllling it. 500 million in profit? Some of the dumber ideas- crossing oceans and relying on POS with no network to fill 1 flight a day is dumb. But if Ryanair, Wizz or EasyJet decided to harness that network they run and send 5 XLR’s to say NYC, ORD, MIA, PHL and BOS a day, ohhh lord would the big 3 have a problem. Same can be said for F9/NK. Give it about 5 years and some economic heartburn, I think the legacy’s will start to hurt.
The US is similar with SWA... not a ULCC but it DOES occupy so much of the "cheaper than legacy" market that it serves as a spoiler for the massive growth of ULCC here. Different evolutionary path here vs. Europe. I don't think there are three large, distinct markets: Legacy, LCC, and ULCC. I think that spectrum can be covered by two large business models which establish economy of scale, with a few small niche players filling in the gaps. I don't think there's room for a vast ULCC market here with SWA in the way. Unless they can steal pax from SWA. Probably some room for point-to-point growth, to work around the legacy hub-and-spoke system. But the legacy customer base is either locked into hub-and-spoke (small towns), set in their ways (older folks), need overseas access, or are just too high-dollar for ULCC (JB has tapped some of that with high-end service between elite destinations). |
ULCC Model in the U.S.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2961713)
They both essentially created a niche (below and in addition to the traditional legacy market), and occupy a large share of it. Some of their customer base came from legacies, some was new. Details are different.
Those three are established now and occupy a large share of their niche, taken together they are *roughly* analogous to SWA in the US. That creates an ecosystem in which it's going to be hard for new ones to grow and thrive. The US is similar with SWA... not a ULCC but it DOES occupy so much of the "cheaper than legacy" market that it serves as a spoiler for the massive growth of ULCC here. Different evolutionary path here vs. Europe. I don't think there are three large, distinct markets: Legacy, LCC, and ULCC. I think that spectrum can be covered by two large business models which establish economy of scale, with a few small niche players filling in the gaps. I don't think there's room for a vast ULCC market here with SWA in the way. Unless they can steal pax from SWA. Probably some room for point-to-point growth, to work around the legacy hub-and-spoke system. But the legacy customer base is either locked into hub-and-spoke (small towns), set in their ways (older folks), need overseas access, or are just too high-dollar for ULCC (JB has tapped some of that with high-end service between elite destinations). Southwest is not a ULCC so comparing them to Ryan Air and others is off base in my opinion. Southwest includes more freebies in their base ticket than any of the legacies. Southwest is also more expensive than flying any of the big three here in the US most of the time. Ryan, Easy Jet and Wizz are basically the same business model as Spirit and Frontier. Spirit and Frontier just aren’t as big. Stage lengths are key for ULCC’s. The shorter the better. People don’t care whether they’re going from DTW to LGA or EWR to LAX they want to pay $50. If they can squeeze 228 people into a 321 going from DTW to LGA and sell them drinks, seat upgrades and bags it’s more profitable than selling them the same bags and upgrades going coast to coast. The longer the flight the harder it gets to make any money or break even on just the base fare. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by TrojanCMH
(Post 2961913)
If they can squeeze 228 people into a 321
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Sunrig
(Post 2961961)
Talking about squeezing- just read that WIZZ Air in Europe has 240! seats in their 321.
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Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2961984)
”Yeah. Frontier,”Our legroom is better than most domestic airlines economy.
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Yep. I rode in the back of a United 737 the other day. It was shockingly bad. My knees were smashed into the seat. Far less comfortable than Frontier. Pathetic
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Originally Posted by Aero1900
(Post 2962007)
Yep. I rode in the back of a United 737 the other day. It was shockingly bad. My knees were smashed into the seat. Far less comfortable than Frontier. Pathetic
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Originally Posted by JimLaheyTPS
(Post 2962269)
Rode on a Frontier Airbus the other day that had ok legroom but felt like I was sitting on a hard plastic seat on a subway. Pathetic.
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I see a lot of flinging mud from both sides here, not a good look for either group.
FWIW I do not think ULCC or Legacy share the same passengers for the most part. |
Originally Posted by sobo
(Post 2962277)
I see a lot of flinging mud from both sides here, not a good look for either group.
FWIW I do not think ULCC or Legacy share the same passengers for the most part. It’s mostly from the ulcc guys. I wish them well and glad they’ve got good contracts now but it seems a few of them have a little short man syndrome going on lol. |
Originally Posted by mainlineAF
(Post 2962371)
It’s mostly from the ulcc guys. I wish them well and glad they’ve got good contracts now but it seems a few of them have a little short man syndrome going on lol.
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Originally Posted by JimLaheyTPS
(Post 2962269)
Rode on a Frontier Airbus the other day that had ok legroom but felt like I was sitting on a hard plastic seat on a subway. Pathetic.
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Originally Posted by WaterRooster
(Post 2962441)
All of our airlines have faults and just because some of us don’t see going to a Legacy as the best thing like ever, doesn’t mean we have bad attitudes or “short man” syndrome. You do you And we are happy to fly the people you don’t. More then enough people to go around.
Then why so hostile? |
Originally Posted by mainlineAF
(Post 2962468)
Then why so hostile?
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Originally Posted by JimLaheyTPS
(Post 2962269)
Rode on a Frontier Airbus the other day that had ok legroom but felt like I was sitting on a hard plastic seat on a subway. Pathetic.
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Originally Posted by mainlineAF
(Post 2962371)
It’s mostly from the ulcc guys. I wish them well and glad they’ve got good contracts now but it seems a few of them have a little short man syndrome going on lol.
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Geographical differences
One thing you guys are not considering is that Europe is much denser then the US so the ULCC have an easy tim getting at the population for privately run secondary airports with low operating costs.
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secondary airports with low operating costs. A couple jurisdiction sued Ryanair over this semi legal racket and won. So Ryanair did kickstart its whole continent expansion with a lot of taxpayer money. |
ULCC Model in the U.S.
Originally Posted by WaterRooster
(Post 2962005)
Seriously! I get deadhead all the time on American and United. The 737 my knees are in the back of the seat in front of me. In our Airbus I have a little room. It’s crazy. Now if you want to talk about seat padding... we suck
I think the 170/175 ERJ has more leg room then mainline on all carriers. I think it’s scope so they spread out the 69 and 76 seaters. I prefer deadheads on them over mainline. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Arturito
(Post 2964055)
Not only low but Ryanair got hundreds of millions of $$$ in subsidies from these local "counties" and playing the blackmailing game "you stop funding this route, we're out of here".
A couple jurisdiction sued Ryanair over this semi legal racket and won. So Ryanair did kickstart its whole continent expansion with a lot of taxpayer money. |
I wanted to bump this thread because the last post was pre-COVID. We’re in an interesting spot due to the industry shakeup. Nobody went unscathed due to the economic hit in 2020, but the ULCCs seem to be least impacted. Moreover, they look like they’re going to be the biggest winners in the recovery. The next few years are going to be interesting ...
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Originally Posted by Voski
(Post 3213657)
I wanted to bump this thread because the last post was pre-COVID. We’re in an interesting spot due to the industry shakeup. Nobody went unscathed due to the economic hit in 2020, but the ULCCs seem to be least impacted. Moreover, they look like they’re going to be the biggest winners in the recovery. The next few years are going to be interesting ...
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 3213714)
I think you are right. They were growing nearly 15% per year before COVID and they (and SWA) are going to steal a lead on the legacies in recovery. Excepting the one nominal legacy (Alaska) the decline of business and international flying is really driving up legacy CASM. Competing on fares for the visiting friends and family crowd isn’t what the legacy business model was designed for and it’s difficult to think that they’ll do well at is. With CASM ex-fuel down around 7 cents (and their own good fuel efficiency) the ULCCs and SWA ought to hold their own against the Big Three fairly well.
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
(Post 3213725)
Increasing legacy CASM? Haven’t all legacies reduced structural costs? Maybe you mean driving down their RASM?
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This was the big “test” people were waiting to see, how the ULCCs fared in a down economy.
The full outcome still remains to be seen, but it appears that they (predominantly NK and F9) not only survived but thrived. |
Originally Posted by singlepilot
(Post 3213758)
This was the big “test” people were waiting to see, how the ULCCs fared in a down economy.
The full outcome still remains to be seen, but it appears that they (predominantly NK and F9) not only survived but thrived. |
Originally Posted by Macjet
(Post 3213820)
Had it not been for CARES/CARES2/PAP it's quite possible that Spirit would have been the only airline that wouldn't have furloughed.
Thanks Gov’ment for that cheese |
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