Respect
 

Recently I have been accused of a lack of respect for my own chosen profession and that is not entirely true. I had a deep respect and admiration for my job and with head held high strode to work with steam in my stride because I thought I was doing something important in this world and that I was building towards a bright and growing future.

Experience has taught me otherwise. I wish the reality matched my beliefs but like a kid who discovers that most of the magic of childhood isn't true I watched as every one of my highest held beliefs about aviation fell.

I respected my profession. It was the profession that didn't respect me or my friends. We can all pound our fists in the sand and say it isn't so but the writing is on the wall. Employers don't care about pilots anymore. The job has been devalued. A flood of pilots with thousands of hours of empty RJ time pile in at every job fair and convention.

Most of the arrogant captains today wouldn't come close to qualifying if they were to try to get hired today with the resumes they had even 10 years ago. The market is awash with jet time and glass cockpit magicians. It isn't about the educated and skilled professional anymore but about how much a pilot will sacrifice for the job.

Who has respect for experienced pilots anymore? Man I wish I knew.

SkyHigh

Bravo Bravo Well said, from the big man himself!:D

you held your head high when you worked for national at those rates undercutting everyone else that flew the 757 or just about any other airplane out there.

pilots are greedy and only think about themselves. that's why this industy has fallen apart and you are no different. I've seen it in student pilots, flight instructors, regional national and major airline pilots.

you took a job that undercut others in the hope of getting something better (alaska). the problem is that your airline didn't make it and now you are bitter. if national would have taken off with those rates like southwest jetblue and airtran did I'm betting that you would be singing a different toon.

by the way respect it highly overrated. just look at airline CEO's. how many airline employees still respect them?

"Who has respect for experienced pilots anymore? Man I wish I knew."

There is an easy answer to that question. Other pilots.

Sky's self respect
 

Absolutely SkyHigh, and good for you. It's all about integrity. Through a disappointing experience, you came to the conclusion you have more respect for yourself than the industry has for you. All the metrics support such a conclusion, and the reality of it is that pilots created it. While I value the sincere works of all pilots wellpaid or underpaid, wages are mainly driven by supply.

"Recently I have been accused of a lack of respect for my own chosen profession and that is not entirely true"

Then you say things like:

"I had a deep respect..."
"I respected my profession..."

I'd rather eat lunch and go for a bike ride on the beach than go back and pull up all the quotes that prove you don't respect the profession TODAY. And, what you write is so slanted by that opinion that I know for a fact that some of what you write is totally inaccurate.

But this forum is all about differing opinions, therefore, you have an audience for your stuff, which is all that really matters.

People that don't resepct the profession, TODAY, should not be involved in it.

Respect? Isn't it a accepted wisdom that the airline/aviation business is on the leading edge of economic up and down cycles? If so, then I would think the airline/aviation industry is also on the leading edge of changing labor economics; the general downsizing of pay/benefits for highly skilled individuals. Pilots not getting "respect" is just a mirror image of what nearly every other working profession now experiences; less pay, less benefits, (the stress of impending health insurance reduction or no health benefits at all) and more hours per week coupled with the threat of off-shoring, adds up to less security. Its not just the airlines & aviation, its just that we notice it most because of our association with the industry. But its nation wide. Of course this is excepting the often (and generally accepted) maligned CEO's getting 400-500 times the average wage. But they don't have job security either (they last on average all of four years) although with rather different financial consequences. Its a bit delusional to deny we have a de-facto ruling class in this society and also delusional that we have an elected government that's going to protect us from those forces. Until then pony up to the ever shrinking career.

WTF are you talking about? It's not like you're Ghandi, Rosa Parks or Biko. You picked a career, you had [fill in the blank] bad luck, bad timing or made the wrong choice at the wrong time. Now if you were a teacher, who got into teaching based on the noble desire to improve youth and society and then had a run of bad luck, got disillusioned and quit you might have something valid to say...but that isn't the situation here. You seem like the kind of pudknocker who went out and bought a Rolex after completing IOE posing in the terminal on your days off in uniform...real noble.

Before you get your already up your butt panties anymore up your butt, I'm on my fifth airline including a furlough and bankruptcy, and guess what...I didn't give up and go sniveling to those who were doing "better" than I was at the time. I got off my ass, kept going to work (while supporting a family), did whatever it took to make ends meet. Now I've got a great flying job and likely will to retirement. That is both a measure of me doing my research and picking a job based more on business than emotion (cargo vs. pax) and...guess what, some good luck. If I had made a wrong choice and/or had some more bad luck I sure wouldn't be on a pilot website justifying my lack of fortitude and commitment, I'd be using my energies and hopefully knowledge gained by my shortcomings and get it right somewhere else. But for all I know, this may not be your first (or last) pityfest.

Diminishing regional captains on a pilot website is such transparent bitterness on your part it's pathetic. And you know what else? Management has NEVER respected pilots anymore than many here who have forgotten more about aviation than you'll ever know will ever have for you. Get a grip.

1. why
2. what exactly do you respect about this industry

Other pilots?
 

Have you been on this web site long??

SkyHigh

Respect
 

Maybe you are right. Perhaps this career is about unending sacrifice and hardship. Like I have previously said it seems like one is expected to give it all till there is nothing left of our lives but sleep and work. If you are comfortable with multiple furloughs, layoffs and shutdowns and still come back for more then my next question is that where does one draw the line? When do we start to respect ourselves? The industry sure will not. Not so long as they can kick someone to the curb for decades and they keep coming back.

I wish that for every one of these "get over it" types we could preform a full audit of all the choices they made in their life to remain in the saddle and tally up all the losses to go along with them. My guess is that it becomes easier to give up things that you care about the more you do it.

I would say that in years past it was easier to pick up another job that had at least a hope of paying the bills. Today that isn't so easy. Once you are bounced out with a family in tow there is little else to jump to.

SKyHigh

Means to an end
 

Sure, this is a fun debate that many of us have enjoyed many times here on APC. What do you suppose you would do if presented with an opportunity to more than double your regional pay and improve your chances at a major as well? As a regional pilot you are one of thousands of screaming turbine captains. Most will never leave their noisy props and 4:00AM show times. As a 757 pilot I was able to rise above the masses. My strategy would have worked except for 911.

Had National or my other goals worked out I am sure that my attitude would have been different. Now that I am able to see life from the outside I have a diffrent perspective. I wouldn't have known that had I been able to remain suckling a mind numbing pay check. In years to come I am sure that I will be even more thankful that I was able to get out.

SkyHigh

"what exactly do you respect about this industry"

I believe I said I respect the profession, not the industry. Do you see the difference?

[QUOTE=SkyHigh;166745]Maybe you are right. Perhaps this career is about unending sacrifice and hardship. Like I have previously said it seems like one is expected to give it all till there is nothing left of our lives but sleep and work. If you are comfortable with multiple furloughs, layoffs and shutdowns and still come back for more then my next question is that where does one draw the line? When do we start to respect ourselves? The industry sure will not. Not so long as they can kick someone to the curb for decades and they keep coming back.

Skyhigh:

Jeeeze...please point out a "career" that is free of hardship, fair and in recognition of skill, dedication and passion above all else and you'll be the pied piper of modern times. Of course I wasn't "comfortable" with furloughs and disappointments that had nothing to do with me...who is? I chose this career because it's all I ever really wanted to do. When income came up short, I picked up additional work (fortunately in aviation) until I got something better. I never burned bridges at jobs, never let my CFI expire and didn't treat those that some would consider "below me" below me, because beyond being a crappy way to live will deny you some good opportunities.

When puppies ask about starting out in this thing of ours I first ask why...really why they want to do it. If it's the "money", the "glamour" or flight attendant panties I strongly encourage them to go to business school and learn to sell junk bonds or raid airlines like Jet Blue. Because unless one lives the charmed life in this thing there WILL be setbacks that have little or nothing to do with you because anything less than a true love of flying for flying's sake will not carry you through those tough times, and in many cases innocent families may suffer so that somebody with the wrong motivation was playing airline pilot but didn't have the guts to see it through. By all measures, most would have quit if in my shoes 14 years ago, but since I didn't, combined with some good fortune (different than luck) I am in a great position and not inclined to apologize for it.

Nowhere in the brochure that I read did it say that my bosses would love me, I'd only work five days a month, make 500K a year and have all the women call me captain with adoring eyes. Maybe somebody should have given you the speech when you were a puppy and you could have gone to selling junk bonds, raiding Jet Blue and being called sir by employees who hate your guts but have families to feed. Some people just need to be cubicle monkeys I guess. Crap or get off the pot sport...somebody who wants it more is behind you.

ok so I'll repeat it again but slightly different

1. why
2. what exactly do you respect about the profession

"what exactly do you respect about the profession"

I respect my fellow crewmember that has busted balls to get here.
I respect my fellow crewmember that busts ball every year to stay here.
I respect those who have sacrificed before me to make this a great career.
I respect those with more experience than me, as they show me the way.
I respect my F/O who tries his darndest to keep me out of trouble.
I respect what it takes to persevere and succeed in the biz.
I respect those who bring the best they have to the game and don't quit under pressure.

I could go on.

Once again, if you don't respect the profession, you don't belong in the biz.

Sell AMWAY, you can make a killing . . . more $$$ than flying a metal tube for any airline. Plus, you can do it from home.

Yeah, but can you still look in the mirror in the morning? :eek:

Professional respect
 

In Russia before the fall of the iron curtain one of the most most respected professions was that of waitress. Afterwards the once most blessed of the communist workplace when they could only expect minimum wage plus tips they were extremely upset.

Once they started to earn less than the people who picked up the trash they began to loose respect from the community and eventually from them selves. We can all stand in defiance and shake our fists at the moon and claim that we are more than what the world will provide however in the free market skills are rewarded by their value to the workplace and not by what we would like to see.

Wages are like votes from the workplace. The world is what it is and not what we would like it to be.

SkyHigh

Choices
 

Life is about choices. The 9 to 5 guy may not be able to claim the funnest job in the neighborhood but is home every night and that is something of significance.

Skyhigh

Yeah . . . .! Because my face would be clean from their high quality soap.

Peers
 

[QUOTE=Sideshow Bob;166776]Really you and I are a lot alike.

I am all about dissuading those who have better things to do than to waste their lives in a cold and still flight deck at 3:00 in the morning. To me flying is merely a job. I have a good life that I defend. Things that I value more than what the long and enduring sacrifices of a typical pilot career will give. What you give up in trade for the "cubicle" I claim to be inferior to the benefits of a life with financial rewards, friends and family.

An aviation career is a loners paradise. I wish I had someone to tell me and my generation better. If someone wants if more than they can have it. I choose life. Had I known better I would have gone to sell junk bonds. There are better plumbs for the sacrifices to grasp.

In conclusion, you and I are on the same team. You continue to cull those who would choose a lonely cold concrete hotel room over a life with people they know and love while I will continue to warn those who enjoy life and prosperity.

Skyhigh

"I am all about dissuading those who have better things to do than to waste their lives in a cold and still flight deck at 3:00 in the morning"

240K last year. What a waste, indeed.....

And if it's cold, turn the heat up!

And if it's still, good -- there aren't any emergencies!

I'm pretty sure that he's not referring to UPS, SWA, FDX pilots. Most pilots don't have a W-2 worth bragging about. I think that aviation is still a good profession. I am, however, worried that it won't remain that way.

North to Alaska!
 

Admit it, Sky. In your heart, you still want that pilot seat, but you're trying to immunize yourself against another rejection. Forget the pre-emptive sour grapes and go for it! It's possible that you will get hired, but find that you have talked YOURSELF out of enjoying the job! ;)

Tom
 

Dear Tom,

You truly are a Good Man. Perhaps I am not so afraid of rejection than I am of actually getting the job. Be careful what you wish for my mother always told me. :)

Thank you for the kind messages,

Skyhigh

Future man Got it.
 

Yes 240K would be very nice. It is the elusive crack that keeps the masses moving.

SkyHigh

"waste their lives in a cold and still flight deck at 3:00 in the morning"

"I'm pretty sure that he's not referring to UPS..FDX pilots"

No? What else do you think he meant? Who else is flying at 3am?

I'm thinking it's just another silly oversight, or maybe just another dumb, baseless, post from Skyhigh.

No big deal. I'm quite used to Skyhigh's meanless diatribe. Just thought I'd make the point in case anyone is listening. I'm hoping not, though....

I tell my students that they have to love to fly more than most anything and be prepared to do whatever it takes to hang in there. Yeah the industry isn't the same as it was. But there are still jobs to do and evidently plenty of pilots to do them. I couldn't do the 9 to 5 thing. I might last 5 years before I had to change jobs. 4:30 shows this semester sucked, but I needed multi time and there was a seat in the 404 with my name on it, so I was there. Most of my friends think I'm crazy to spend a Friday or Saturday morning flying the suits around the region, but I still loved it. That's why I won't give in. I'm getting paid to do the very thing I'd do in my spare time. How many people can really say that about their job?

home at night...
 

Valuing to be home every night perhaps does not sound like a function of self respect, but if you ask me it is. Years ago the only future I saw for myself was in jobs that started at 5pm and after. I felt like a second class citizen. I vowed to get the same daily schedule normal society has. I got it, and find the privilege to be worth having. But part of the sweetness I perceive in it is the knowledge that if I had not responded to my inner desire for self respect and changed my occupation I would not have it.

In one of my previous lives I did missionary work. There was always a type of a manager within our organization that would misuse the devotion and commitment exhibited by underlings to get things done for free. This type would often go so far as to declare their misuse.

I see a similar thing in aviation. While there are many important functions that can only go on at night like night freight, those who do it should be well-paid for the disturbance it creates in their lives. And to accept a tradeoff is not necessarily the absense of self-respect. 727 claims to receive what I would call more than adequate compensation for his troubles. But acceptance of a disturbance for as little as a pipedream in compensation, or to supposedly one day skip to a better life without any guarantee, strikes me as folly. There are many more night freight jobs than there are adequately compensated pilots performing them.

Sky, if your life is so incredibly good, why do you spend so much time on this board? Why don't you spend your time enjoying that family you refer to so much? Maybe you should talk to Dr. Phil about this....

Redeyes
 

Unfortunately I had to spend many nights awake at 3:00am flying redeyes. I am sure that plenty of other pax companies have to do the same. I wan't trying to target you or anyone else.

Skyhigh

that sounds like you respect the person not the profession but I can live with that. you never answered #1 though. why should they get out if they don't respect the profession.

do you respect the pilot who will step on someones toes because they are just trying to get ahead.
do you respect a pilot who will only look at a contract and see that they are taken care of and not worry about the pilots junior to them.
do you respect the pilot who doesn't care that a regional, who flew for them, just lost 100% of it's flying because the stood up to management.
do you respect a pilot who doesn't care about anyone else except themself while talking about unity at the same time.

Time
 

I am sure that many here envision me hovering over my computer all day. I can assure you that a few minutes is all I spend here.

Skyhigh

I decided to put my time in at a regional and get PIC vs. going to get bigger airplane experience at lower than standard pay just to get ahead. I tried to get pay and quality of life better there.

how much time did you get at national to rise above the masses and what kind of PIC time do you have. just curious

why do you think I am a regional pilot. I've never stated who I worked for on this board. I might be at a major or then again I may actually work at a regional...

de727ups
 

I wish you would acknowledge how lucky you are. You didn't "love" flying more than the other guy. You did not use a better attitude to get to the brass ring. Nor was is a long string of sacrificial years of your life either. Ten years ago who among us would have foreseen the rise in prominence of the cargo carrier? The freight outfits were the stopping ground of riff raff and industry wreckage. The legacy carriers were the place to be. How can you claim to have such a profound knowledge and skill other than that of a lottery winner?

As far as I know you have never been furloughed, never been laid off, did not donate a decade or more to the military, didn't have to suffer the humiliation of poverty in your 30's. It seems to me that you have enjoyed a story book career. So how can you really claim to know aviation at all? Seems to me that you have missed out on much of what I write about. Yet here you are like a drug pusher spreading false expectations to another generation of cannon fodder. I think it is self glorification and that it hurts people.

The only difference between me and many of the pro-aviation flag waving supporters is that my company shut down. Had it succeeded or had I made it to Alaska Airlines I would most definitely have been thankful however I don't think I ever could advise this profession to anyone. People die in the pursuit of it. They watch as the best years of their lives get sucked up into a blurr of 5 day trips and the same concrete hotel room. Luck is the only decider for most and nothing more. I spent long enough. By the time I got out only more pain and hardship awaited me for my continued sacrifice.

SkyHigh

Regional
 

In past posts I thought that you stated that you were a newly graduated UND guy.

As you know many here view the regional at similar to a LCC. Every RJ displaces a 737 at a major airline. You are fooling yourself if you think any different.

As for the LCC job, a big jet beats out an RJ on any day. There are thousands of active and flying regional captains. Stand in line at a job fair and you will see what I mean. If I were to have made it to the left seat of the 757 I would have been a made man. As a regional captain I had a one in three chance at best.



SkyHigh

I respect my profession too.

I study and review the books, flashcards, etc.

I also demand respect by showing respect to others, by ironing my shirt, dry cleaning my uniform once in a couple of months, shining my shoes every overnight, staying in shape.

Also, I have started a side business so I don't have to fly 95 or even 80 hours a month. Sadly a lot of people have to do that and consequently become haters of their profession.

Airlines
 

I wish airlines would offer 30 and 45 hours lines so that one can have a real job outside of flying so that they can pay the bills.

Hopefully in the future airlines will realise that they can offer benefits, upgrade and more flexible working conditions in trade for pay. Then we all can get past the concept of expecting aviation to be the bread winner when in fact it is closer to a working hobby for most.

SkyHigh