Forbes: SWA Going Nowhere
06-10-2007 | 04:00 PM
#63
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
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From: B737/Capt
Oscar, I have heard the argument that SWA pilots are stealing from legacy pilots. It is an old argument. By agreeing to work for an airline that does not provide a pension for its employees and pays substandard wages, you hurt the airline profession. Again, I said it was an old argument. I am talking about the 80's and 90's here. Could SWA have paid a few $100,000,000 a year to a pension fund like the legacies and still turned a profit? One will never know. Not being personal here, just applying simple economic priciples. These types of arguments are just silly, don't you think? Oh, and the grants for 9/11 were direct compensation for the govenment imposed ground stop and the economic impact that 9/11 had on airlines. All airlines were paid based on acutal loss. AMR got the biggest check. As you know, UAL was rejected for the loan guarantee.
I figured I would get someones blood pressure up with my post. Again you can mock my analysis by making light of the facts I presented or you can come up with something to refute it. Fact is that SWA's business model has been around a long time and they must adjust to the latest threats as they have adjusted to those in the past (i. e. Shuttle by United, Ted, etc.). Just stating the obvious because Gman has his doubts about whether SWA is now a viable threat to Jblu's existence.
In answer to your claim I will state a fact that will probably enrage you some more. Defined benefit programs are on their way out. Yours is gone and it was not even possible to save them for those who had already retired or were just about to. That is who I feel bad for and wish something else could be done. You however, can blame whomever you wish for your misfortune but be sure to include that person you see every morning in the mirror. SWA has funded my retirement quite nicely (including stock options that paid off quite well) so don't you worry about anyone here. As a former ramp agent for SWA I will be sure to mention to my friends who are still working on the ramp, operations, and even VP positions how poorly their retirement has been funded. The least of which has a million+ from that cheapskate Herb Kelleher.
Next fact is that UAL failed to answer the threats of SWA and others by adjusting their business model for the changing airline industry. Management and labor are both responsible for leaving UAL vulnerable to a catastrophe such as 9-11. Years of leaving your pension underfunded to grow the airline and allowing pay increases that could only be payed for by raising airfares and gouging the flying public finally caught up with you on 9-11. The 2000 contract left UAL in the emergency room and 9-11 put them in a coma. Oh and don't worry about our substandard payscale (even the 80's and 90's payscale wasn't so bad) because I am managing to feed my family. Another fact is that out of all the former UAL pilots I know, none are accepting recall. Look in the mirror more often and choose to accept some of the blame as to the reason why.
As I stated before no airline should have received any money after 9-11 in any form (grant, loan, etc.) including SWA.
I also didn't mean to interupt your luv fest with Mulcher but your bitterness and inability to accept reality were a bit too much.
Last edited by OscartheGrouch; 06-10-2007 at 04:31 PM.
06-11-2007 | 12:52 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,750
Likes: 0
From: 737 CA
JSLED,
I figured I would get someones blood pressure up with my post. Again you can mock my analysis by making light of the facts I presented or you can come up with something to refute it. Fact is that SWA's business model has been around a long time and they must adjust to the latest threats as they have adjusted to those in the past (i. e. Shuttle by United, Ted, etc.). Just stating the obvious because Gman has his doubts about whether SWA is now a viable threat to Jblu's existence.
In answer to your claim I will state a fact that will probably enrage you some more. Defined benefit programs are on their way out. Yours is gone and it was not even possible to save them for those who had already retired or were just about to. That is who I feel bad for and wish something else could be done. You however, can blame whomever you wish for your misfortune but be sure to include that person you see every morning in the mirror. SWA has funded my retirement quite nicely (including stock options that paid off quite well) so don't you worry about anyone here. As a former ramp agent for SWA I will be sure to mention to my friends who are still working on the ramp, operations, and even VP positions how poorly their retirement has been funded. The least of which has a million+ from that cheapskate Herb Kelleher.
Next fact is that UAL failed to answer the threats of SWA and others by adjusting their business model for the changing airline industry. Management and labor are both responsible for leaving UAL vulnerable to a catastrophe such as 9-11. Years of leaving your pension underfunded to grow the airline and allowing pay increases that could only be payed for by raising airfares and gouging the flying public finally caught up with you on 9-11. The 2000 contract left UAL in the emergency room and 9-11 put them in a coma. Oh and don't worry about our substandard payscale (even the 80's and 90's payscale wasn't so bad) because I am managing to feed my family. Another fact is that out of all the former UAL pilots I know, none are accepting recall. Look in the mirror more often and choose to accept some of the blame as to the reason why.
As I stated before no airline should have received any money after 9-11 in any form (grant, loan, etc.) including SWA.
I also didn't mean to interupt your luv fest with Mulcher but your bitterness and inability to accept reality were a bit too much.
I figured I would get someones blood pressure up with my post. Again you can mock my analysis by making light of the facts I presented or you can come up with something to refute it. Fact is that SWA's business model has been around a long time and they must adjust to the latest threats as they have adjusted to those in the past (i. e. Shuttle by United, Ted, etc.). Just stating the obvious because Gman has his doubts about whether SWA is now a viable threat to Jblu's existence.
In answer to your claim I will state a fact that will probably enrage you some more. Defined benefit programs are on their way out. Yours is gone and it was not even possible to save them for those who had already retired or were just about to. That is who I feel bad for and wish something else could be done. You however, can blame whomever you wish for your misfortune but be sure to include that person you see every morning in the mirror. SWA has funded my retirement quite nicely (including stock options that paid off quite well) so don't you worry about anyone here. As a former ramp agent for SWA I will be sure to mention to my friends who are still working on the ramp, operations, and even VP positions how poorly their retirement has been funded. The least of which has a million+ from that cheapskate Herb Kelleher.
Next fact is that UAL failed to answer the threats of SWA and others by adjusting their business model for the changing airline industry. Management and labor are both responsible for leaving UAL vulnerable to a catastrophe such as 9-11. Years of leaving your pension underfunded to grow the airline and allowing pay increases that could only be payed for by raising airfares and gouging the flying public finally caught up with you on 9-11. The 2000 contract left UAL in the emergency room and 9-11 put them in a coma. Oh and don't worry about our substandard payscale (even the 80's and 90's payscale wasn't so bad) because I am managing to feed my family. Another fact is that out of all the former UAL pilots I know, none are accepting recall. Look in the mirror more often and choose to accept some of the blame as to the reason why.
As I stated before no airline should have received any money after 9-11 in any form (grant, loan, etc.) including SWA.
I also didn't mean to interupt your luv fest with Mulcher but your bitterness and inability to accept reality were a bit too much.
Last edited by jsled; 06-11-2007 at 01:11 AM.
06-11-2007 | 02:30 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
From: A320
this is thread has a sad similarity with the pathetic FI ones ( you said, he said, I mo better, youre so dumb...), please mod close it down, lets not turn into FI.
Last edited by greedyairlineexec; 06-11-2007 at 02:44 PM.
06-12-2007 | 07:29 AM
#67
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 558
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06-12-2007 | 08:20 AM
#68
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 848
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From: JS32 FO
I somehow doubt anyone's getting screwed. But they got a guaranteed source of income while they can peddle Jet A to the rest for the highest price. I'm assuming that the deals are made with the refiners, in which case, they never fail to get a profit.
06-12-2007 | 08:56 AM
#69
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
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From: B737/Capt
Never said it was "my claim", just said I had heard the argument. I think the argument that SWA pilots hurt the industry is as silly as your bankruptcy argument, and I said so in my post. You have it quoted up there. Did you read it? I do not blame anyone, including SWA pilots for UAL's or the idustry's woes. Why are you blaming airline bankruptcies for SWA's "current challanges"? Perhaps you should look in the mirror.
I certainly read your post and I would still say that instead of discussing the particulars of the data I presented you chose to mock that info by making a reference to something you had heard. That which you reference (but of course it is not your "claim") is based on ignorance. Nothing stays the same in any industry even though I am sure UAL and other legacies (both their employees and management) would have loved for SWA and other "competitors" to have simply gone away.
If you are unable to see my point that subsidies in any form (Airbus sweet deals, debt forgiven in bankruptcy, loans to anyone from the government, or flat out direct grants to any or all) do not create a level playing field in a so called "free market" than I guess we will have to just disagree. I do not see anything silly in the argument except to not know the difference between competition and being subsidized when your business model fails. I simply believe that the challenges faced by SWA and other airlines in the current revenue environment are the result of business models not being allowed to fail.
Oh! and throwing the "look in the mirror" comment back at me was so painful. I wait impatiently for another of your well thought out replies.
06-12-2007 | 09:37 AM
#70
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
From: L Side
Oscar,
This is painful to watch. You are clearly an intellectual superior and it's like watching a 15 yr old beat up a 6 yr old. Regardless of the point(s) that each of you are trying to make, your posts are so much more articulate that there is no chance for an even exchange of info/opinions. I would throw in the towel on his/her behalf if I could.
This is painful to watch. You are clearly an intellectual superior and it's like watching a 15 yr old beat up a 6 yr old. Regardless of the point(s) that each of you are trying to make, your posts are so much more articulate that there is no chance for an even exchange of info/opinions. I would throw in the towel on his/her behalf if I could.
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