fcoolaiddrinker

really? Regionals have the ability to market and sell tickets now? It’s a completely different business model with super low margins. If you didn’t understand what I mentioned maybe take boilers advice.

OOfff

“Dictated” is a funny word to use here

Gone Flying

Just about every major airline had the terms of their scope altered significantly around or during BK in the wake of 9/11. I would not say ALPA “dictated” those scope concessions, but a BK judge may have

BoilerUP

You understand how "fee for departure" capacity lift agreements work, right?

ElCaribe

The “Fee For Departure” and “Capacity Purchase Agreement” destroyed that idea. It created a race to the bottom. Posted too soon. BoilerUp beat me to it.

Gundam

I understand majors pay a fee to regionals just as passengers pay a fee to majors. The value is determined by the cost vs the benefit provided. If the regional is responsible for building labor into their fee. If the cost of labor is higher at some point the cost to mainline must increase. Are regionals too expensive for mainline? Are they going to stop using regionals? Are you going to answer my question as to why ALPA limits aircraft type available at the regional level and likewise induces a pay deficit since the market for regional aircraft type experience is lower globally, yet they don't limit pay minimum? How is it ALPA doesn't recognize it allows the race to the bottom by scoping aircraft type but not pay??¿????????? How contracts currently work isn't an answer, that is just how things are done now, not how they must be done.

Not a single person has answered the question. If labor or any other non covered expenses go up at the regional level, mainline must do what? Does mainline use regionals out of charity or because it makes them a profit? Why scope type and not pay?

BeatNavy

You say ALPA as if there is one big ALPA that dictates scope rules for the industry. There’s not. There is an independent ALPA at each carrier (except AA who has APA) that negotiates what planes can be outsourced and pay for that particular major airline only. There is a separate ALPA at each of the outsourced airlines that negotiates pay for that regional. One union at one company can’t dictate something at another company. It can only dictate what can be outsourced, but not the terms of the contract pilots flying the outsourced feed. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of this works. There’s one ALPA in that ALPA National exists with resources to provide each airline’s own ALPA. Honest question and not trying to sound like a richard, but are you new to this industry?

BoilerUP

Except it doesn’t, outside of what the CPA for each carrier stipulates.

You can say “mainline must pay more!” all you want, but contractually, no they don’t unless their agreements say otherwise.

Chicken and egg, right?

Yes mainline CPAs have contributed to a regional “pilot shortage” by limiting available funds for a regional carrier to pay market rates while remaining a going concern. Yes that shortage causes mainline problems. Should mainline pay more to help? If the situation was a textbook supply/demand curve yes, but it isn’t so they don’t.

As for ALPA scope covering a “pay floor”…that’s not what scope is about and an understanding of how ALPA functions at the local and national level is paramount to answering that question.

Hedley

Legacy pilots negotiate the terms of scope, not ALPA as a whole. They are only looking out for legacy pilots for that specific group, not the company, and certainly not employees of other companies. The only purpose of scope is to limit how much flying is farmed out to protect and/or create legacy jobs. They can mandate the size and number of aircraft that the legacy can farm out, but they don’t negotiate the pay or QOL for the employees of another company who perform the work. After the union has determined the amount of the available flying, the various regionals fight under the table to get as much as they can. This of course forces them to keep cost, including labor, at a competitive level (the race to the bottom). Yes, increasing the cost of labor would make the current regional model more expensive and less attractive, but no legacy union will spend one dime of negotiating capital to improve things at another company. That is up to the pilots performing the contracted flying. Hopefully they can continue to raise wages across all of the regionals and hamper, if not end, the whipsaw and make higher paying jobs at legacies, cargo companies, and LCC’s available to more people.

galaxy flyer

You fundamentally misunderstand scope. It is solely an agreement between each ALPA MEC and the mainline carriers on what flying must be done by the mainline seniority list pilots. It is not a limit on regional types or wages or any T&C of regional pilots.