Alan, I don't even know where to begin. I can write an entire essay on your quoted forcast alone. Plus the forcast doesn't have anything to do with productivity, if AA is to survive, it must become more productive. your group is so hung up on hourly rates, that you forget that total compensation is simply not just hourly rates, other forms of compensation can be added to bring total compensation up, ala SWA and Jetblue. Your group continually talks about how AA pilots have one of the lowest hourly rates currently, somehow tying that up with lower costs. It's simply not true, because AA is so unproductive, it takes more AA pilots to do the same job. For example if it takes one company 8 guys to pave a driveway at $6/hr, and another group does the same job with 4 guys but they get paid $10/hr, then company A's total costs are $48/hr and it's employees are lower paid, whereas company B does the same job for $40/hr, and has higher paid employees to boot. This is where AA is at, lower pay and unproductive, where we need to get is higher pay, and high productivity.
your position on the A plan, simply put, the A plan must go, and it will benefit pilots if it goes. Let me give you another example, Pensions are funded based on assumed rates of return, which presents a huge conflict of interest for the company, if they get THEIR actuary to assume a high rate of return, then they have to put out less money to fund the plan, i.e. AA was still assuming a 9% rate of return well into 8 months after 911 when the entire market was down in the negatives. Then all of a sudden they start screaming that they are severely underfunded, it was their own doing. To top it all off the A plan is never safe, any time a company visits Chapter 11, it could all go away, just ask the US Air guys. A better choice would be to have the company put the equivalent of 15% of our salary(thats in addition to our salary, not from our salary, just to make it clear) into a DAP type account where it's our money and AA can't touch it, and it's BK proof, it's in our 401K and can't be touched by the company, nor can it be used as leverage to extract anything. These are just some of the things. Now as you respond, it might be a while before i read and respond to you because I leave tomorrow for work, but I will respond.

 

Well, here's a sample of PDP thought/belief I pulled off PDP's editorial page for the forum to read over and sample to help determine exactly who PDP is.. . It's a pretty decent product, overall...and I'll take this group and their reasoned arguments over an ad hominem attack...anyday.

Maybe folks should peruse the PDP website, read the op/ed located therin, and form their own opinion before agreeing with the rock-throwers on this site.

ADIRU



AMR Corporate Attitude - Setting the Standard?
PDP Editorials - Editorials
Wednesday, 04 May 2005
The following letter was sent by SFO based Captain Bill Haug to American Airlines Vice President of Flight Mark Hettermann. Captain Haug is one of the leaders of the American Employees for Ownership (BuyItFixIt) effort.

Mark,

On April 8th, Captain Hunter (APA President) sent a letter to the pilots, the "sick letter". In it, he stated that APA had been in discussions with AA about pilot sick rates, and a Flight Department Manager had said that the pilots are "an unreliable asset base."

It is difficult for me to convey the disgust and revulsion that I felt after reading this. It is incomprehensible to me that, after the long, sordid, and tortured experience that American Airlines has had with the arrogant, foolish, and counterproductive practice of condemning an entire employee group for the actions of a few, a Flight Department Manager would say something so stupid. That any AA manager, much less one in the Flight Department, could so blithely sweep aside and trivialize the vast monetary and other sacrifices this pilot group has made for the benefit of American Airlines is astonishing.

And, perhaps, revealing. Captain Scott Griffith, to his credit, kicked off the discussion at the SFO Safety Standup earlier this year by saying that "we think our main problem is arrogance." I did not disagree, but responded to Captain Griffith that the greatest arrogance I had personally witnessed was arrogance expressed by various AA managers. Arrogance breeds arrogance, and does nothing to solve any of our problems. A wise man once said, "you cannot solve a problem by condemning it."

In your Flight Manual Part One Prologue you stated:

"This prologue to our Part One sets our standard as we seek to strengthen our airline through a vital support-leadership role."

"I ask each of you to recommit to the personal discipline, humility, self-sacrifice and adherence to policy and procedure that will serve as an example to all our employees, as well as enhance the standing of our profession."

"With this understanding, we should stake out the high ground of patience, humility, and emotional even-handedness in our interactions with passengers, crew, and fellow employees."

The statement Captain Hunter attributed to a Flight Department Manager was lacking in humility, was a poor example, was not emotionally even-handed, and did not exhibit patience. It degraded, rather than enhanced, the "standing of our profession" while addressing the sins of a very small minority in our ranks. It negated the huge self-sacrifice that our pilots have made, and continue to make, to keep our company solvent.

And, it was wrong.

I am profoundly, profoundly disappointed. In a few short words, a Flight Department Manager has undermined everything you have said in your credo, "Setting the Standard", exhorting us to take a leadership role.

I guess it just proves once again that one cannot "Set the Standard" with words ... only with actions. One can lead only by example, and no other way.

Regards,

Bill Haug
CA SFO
Unreliable Asset #xxxxxxx

 

Personally, I find their actions to be honorable... while I have my own thoughts about where some mainline pay scales have climbed to (certainly I don't think that the pre 9/11 scales were sustainable), I do think that it's time that somebody took a damn stand over the continued backpeddling by pilots. Management takes and takes and takes, and when they can take no more, they declare BK and file to have contracts thrown out so they can take again.

All the while they are building their golden parachutes and taking "paycuts" (but still keeping enough to keep that million dollar home and 3 lexus payments).

I would have liked to see regional pilots take a stand first, but I'll take what I can get.

 

Thank god for the PDP. If it were not for those guys the sissy split tails who run the APA BOD would give away everything. Too bad those ungrateful ex-TWA boobs want to destroy AA, not help it succeed.

 

I have been watching this thread. To all others who might be playing fly on the wall let me point out that the current adminisration at APA will be rewarded by management for selling out the pilot group. I say again, to all the pilots reading this type of drivel, over the coming months you will be reading much on both C&R and in chat rooms all over the net about how screwed up the PDP is. Please remember that the pilots selling you out have a vested interest in seeing the deal go through. The current APA president was asked to sign a simple letter stating that he would not accept a management pilot position after the deal was done. He refused. What more do you lemmings need to hear? It appears that B757200ER is just one more beaten down pilot who will be hoping for favors or a cushy management pilot job in exchange for helping the crooks that are in office at the moment. Darrah is a perfect example, as the arbiter of the APA pilots previous contract and current demise, he gets to go play in at the office doing "research" while the rest of us fly the line. Another example of this was that TWA guy "Bounds". He helped sell out his fellow TW pilots and was rewarded with the furloughs being stopped just below his sen number. Until they got what they wanted out of him and he was dropped into FUR status like a John loses a jimmy hat. HEY BOUNDS! How's that eagle job treating you? You got the Flowbacks organized yet? The list of pilots that have helped sell out the AA guys grows with each passing contract. What's really sad is that the majority of AA skirt wearers never learn. Of course it's not really their fault. It all goes back to a meeting with Crandall and Judy back in the day. Legend has it that Bob paid a bunch of shrinks big bucks to come up with a way to screen pilots using the test we all took at the interview. Using this test as a filter they were able to hire only the most compliant and directable pilots. Unless you were smart enough to game the test. So essentially what we have today is a union and an airline run by order taking B scale losers that couldn't get a job at any of the REAL airlines back then, like Pan Am or TWA.

AA pilots, you gave up almost a BILLION dollars. What did you get? More RJs. You foolishly enabled, like an alcoholics wife, the current management to stay in place. AA Flight Attendants, Gate Agents, and Mechanics work under industry leading contracts. While your union is about to come to you for more givebacks. They'll say no more displacements and no more furloughs but like you've heard before, things will change. Management will continue to come to the pilots for money or more productivity until you say enough. Let them get it somewhere else this time. Force them to spin off Eagle. If they won't do that then fix the Eagle cost sharing issue. AMR is hiding how much of a REAL drain Eagle is on the AA system, they do this because it behooves them to make it seem like AA is in worse shape than it is. Eagle is draining AA's bottom line day by day. AA pilots, stop the enabling now!

 

Skypilot,

You could have gone to the PDP website and seen how the dollar value, which by the way is $936.18 million, was reached. There is a line by line cost savings analysis of the various contract items. The link to the page is:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15

It can also be reached by visiting the PDP home page and clicking the Contract '03 - Our View link. In this analysis, there is a link to a Contract Valuation Analysis page that shows where the numbers used in the Contact '03 - Our View article came from. Here's the link to the Contract Valuation Analysis page:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...sk=view&id=333

The numbers are all there. If you'd like to discuss any particular line item, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

As an aside, how about stating your name and current airline or occupation for the record. You can stand up and be a man, or you can remain anonymous and lose all credibility.

 

OK. But remember, PDP's numbers [http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15] came from APA, and PDP added in a few items APA "forgot" about, like reductions in retirement funding and FICA commensurate with the 23% reduction in pay. Also, APA's numbers, as provided to the LGA Domicile by LGA Chairman Captain Sam Mayer, did not include any savings for furloughees, which PDP did include based on valuation provided by a former negotiator. See http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...sk=view&id=333

While some numbers have been bandied about recently regarding AA pilot productivity, the numbers are confusing and conflicting. In fact, in a recent message to the AA pilots, the APA ORD domicile representatives were quoted as saying that "Southwest pilots average 96 - 130 hours a year more than AA domestic pilots." Yet in the same communication, there were 2 charts attributed to the DOT that showed AA pilots flying 20 hours per month, 241 hours per year, less than SWA pilots. So in the same message, APA puts out hugely different numbers for the same metric.

However, PDP has mentioned in several newsletters and/or editorials that any productivity shortfall is not an AA pilot problem but rather an AA scheduling (read: management) problem. The AA pilot contract gives AA the ability to schedule effectively, management has simply chosen not to schedule effectively or lacks the ability to schedule effectively.

And don't forget to factor in items like the massive training (read: non-flying) requirements associated with nearly 2900 furloughs, and other "Structural Productivity" items like furloughees going to recurrent one month before their furlough, F100 Captains who go to recurrent one month early before their next month's displacement to 767 First Officer, ORD 737 Captains who spend four months awaiting training because the aircraft are gone from ORD and no displacement training slots are open. Are flowbacks, who are "awaiting training", carried as AA pilots for purposes of "stick" hours? The list goes on.

No mention is made of the methodology used to arrive at the 47 "stick" hours per month for AA pilots? Until we know the underlying numbers, all of them, that factor into the "stick" hour comparison, it's anyone's guess as to their validity.

In any case, PDP's position is, and has been, that AA management has not made effective use of the scheduling efficiencies inherent in the current contract, and until they utilize all scheduling efficiencies, further talk of productivity enhancements is premature.

Regarding total compensation comparisons to Southwest, AMR is currently seeking to "cherry pick" the best parts (for them) of the SWA contract and apply them at AA. PDP's position is that if AMR wants a SOuthwest style contract, it's "all or nothing". And PDP agrees that any compensation comparison to SWA should include total compensation.

Regarding the A-Plan, PDP's first and overriding consideration is that if a change is made to the A-Plan, all pilots must be made whole. There can be no loss of value for any pilot, from the most senior to the most junior. Consideration must also be given to the fact that with longer upgrade time, many AA pilots will be earning lower FO wages for a longer portion of their career. The current A-Plan, which relies on LOS and FAE (not career earnings), does offer some protection for seat stagnation issues.

As in the previous topic discussed, the unrealistically high rates of return assumed by AA management are a management problem. Unfortunately, it's the pilots who suffer the consequences and must act to clean up management's mess.

Several themes run through many of the PDP newsletters and editorials over the past 2 1/2 years:

• Follow the APA C&B and Policy Manual;
• All agreements must be in writing prior to voting on them;
• Upside for the pilots;
• Equity stakes;
• AMR BOD seat;
• Accountability, both at AMR and at APA;
• APA should be pilot advocates, not AMR managers.

I'm sure you'll agree with these themes, and with others I've forgotten about.

As an aside, how about stating your name for the record.

 

[QUOTE=Alan Pollenz]Skypilot,

You could have gone to the PDP website and seen how the dollar value, which by the way is $936.18 million, was reached. There is a line by line cost savings analysis of the various contract items. The link to the page is:

http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ask=view&id=15


You aledged "cost savings analysis" is just a model based on what you think the line items were worth. And it's completely bogus. Try going to the actual financil reports. You do know what 10-K's, 10-Q's, and Form 41's are, don't you? Let me spell it out. Take the the four quarter prior to May 2003 and the four quarter after, and do the math. That is the ACTUAL cost savings in the first year, not some wild-assed guess. You won't get any wher near $900 mil. Nice try though.

Here another one. How bout that piece you sent by Westbrook? The man actualy thinks that parking the fokers increases pilot productivity. He only counts the debt he want to count. What a riot! I've seen some good replies on C&R demolishing his stuff. You guys going to put out the other side? Thought not! "Unbiased" indeed!

 

SkyPile,

Alan quotes fact and has hard proof of what he speaks...you just blow it out your ass with what you want to believe created in your small, narrow mind.

Sorry, but the truth hurts pal.

Super80

[QUOTE=Skypilot]

 

Some people prove the old saw about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink....

So, according to some on this thread, because APA/AMR agreed not to assess any value to the parts of the contract GIVEN to AMR by APA (IMO, as a result of poor planning and negotiating) while PDP correctly stated that this real estate has value...and we estimate it at XXX based on YYY...PDP's numbers are off or PDP is putting out bad data?

For example, from Contract '03;

Loosened RJ50 wraps; APA given no credit. Mike Boyd estimated this to be worth $200M/yr in 2000.

Pilots on reserve lost 1 day off per month. No value for APA on this.

Increased lock-ins after training. No value credited to APA for this.

Permit domestic codeshare. No value to APA's pilots for this.

I could go on and on....but there was a LOT of value from our contract that was given away for FREE because of incompetence, ineptitude or corruption (maybe all three) on the APA leadership's part. These items didn't/won't end up overnight in an SEC document. But they have VALUE, none the less.

Of course, we could continue to look at it like APA's current leaders, who seem to be the type of neighbor next door AMR would just love to have. APA wouldn't gripe if AMR's dog likes using his yard to make a deposit better than it's own or if AMR builds a fence well over on APA's side of the property line. In fact, AMR insists that APA clean up the dog-doo and dig the post holes!

Course when Neighbor #3 (PDP) shows up to tell APA he's getting screwed...well it's amazing who starts raising a stink about what a bad neighbor PDP is!

PDP has done a great job giving a counter-point to the propaganda spewing from AMR/AAPA. If PDP's points weren't so "on the mark", I don't think the little piggy's over at AMR/AAPA would be squealing so loudly...

ADIRU