Pilots Defending the Profession
11-09-2005 | 05:43 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
SHACK! Spot on!
Originally Posted by ADIRU
Some people prove the old saw about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink....
So, according to some on this thread, because APA/AMR agreed not to assess any value to the parts of the contract GIVEN to AMR by APA (IMO, as a result of poor planning and negotiating) while PDP correctly stated that this real estate has value...and we estimate it at XXX based on YYY...PDP's numbers are off or PDP is putting out bad data?
For example, from Contract '03;
Loosened RJ50 wraps; APA given no credit. Mike Boyd estimated this to be worth $200M/yr in 2000.
Pilots on reserve lost 1 day off per month. No value for APA on this.
Increased lock-ins after training. No value credited to APA for this.
Permit domestic codeshare. No value to APA's pilots for this.
I could go on and on....but there was a LOT of value from our contract that was given away for FREE because of incompetence, ineptitude or corruption (maybe all three) on the APA leadership's part. These items didn't/won't end up overnight in an SEC document. But they have VALUE, none the less.
Of course, we could continue to look at it like APA's current leaders, who seem to be the type of neighbor next door AMR would just love to have. APA wouldn't gripe if AMR's dog likes using his yard to make a deposit better than it's own or if AMR builds a fence well over on APA's side of the property line. In fact, AMR insists that APA clean up the dog-doo and dig the post holes!
Course when Neighbor #3 (PDP) shows up to tell APA he's getting screwed...well it's amazing who starts raising a stink about what a bad neighbor PDP is!
PDP has done a great job giving a counter-point to the propaganda spewing from AMR/AAPA. If PDP's points weren't so "on the mark", I don't think the little piggy's over at AMR/AAPA would be squealing so loudly...
ADIRU
So, according to some on this thread, because APA/AMR agreed not to assess any value to the parts of the contract GIVEN to AMR by APA (IMO, as a result of poor planning and negotiating) while PDP correctly stated that this real estate has value...and we estimate it at XXX based on YYY...PDP's numbers are off or PDP is putting out bad data?
For example, from Contract '03;
Loosened RJ50 wraps; APA given no credit. Mike Boyd estimated this to be worth $200M/yr in 2000.
Pilots on reserve lost 1 day off per month. No value for APA on this.
Increased lock-ins after training. No value credited to APA for this.
Permit domestic codeshare. No value to APA's pilots for this.
I could go on and on....but there was a LOT of value from our contract that was given away for FREE because of incompetence, ineptitude or corruption (maybe all three) on the APA leadership's part. These items didn't/won't end up overnight in an SEC document. But they have VALUE, none the less.
Of course, we could continue to look at it like APA's current leaders, who seem to be the type of neighbor next door AMR would just love to have. APA wouldn't gripe if AMR's dog likes using his yard to make a deposit better than it's own or if AMR builds a fence well over on APA's side of the property line. In fact, AMR insists that APA clean up the dog-doo and dig the post holes!
Course when Neighbor #3 (PDP) shows up to tell APA he's getting screwed...well it's amazing who starts raising a stink about what a bad neighbor PDP is!
PDP has done a great job giving a counter-point to the propaganda spewing from AMR/AAPA. If PDP's points weren't so "on the mark", I don't think the little piggy's over at AMR/AAPA would be squealing so loudly...
ADIRU
11-09-2005 | 06:37 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by ADIRU
So, according to some on this thread, because APA/AMR agreed not to assess any value to the parts of the contract GIVEN to AMR by APA (IMO, as a result of poor planning and negotiating) while PDP correctly stated that this real estate has value...and we estimate it at XXX based on YYY...PDP's numbers are off or PDP is putting out bad data?
ADIRU
And on the Eagle thing, according to PDP, Eagle LOSES revenue. If so, how's that a PLUS for AA? Seems like you should be subtracting from the numbers instead of adding. Cant have you cake and eat it to.
11-09-2005 | 06:53 AM
#24
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,617
Likes: 0
From: B-737 Pilot
Other Side?
Originally Posted by apdriver69
First off boys and girls PDP is a great outlet to hear the "other side of the story"(we know there are 2 sides).
Secondly,TWA employees were not "slaughtered" by APA or AMR. I think it's fortunate that some still have a job because if AMR didn't buy them they would all be out on the street!!!
Secondly,TWA employees were not "slaughtered" by APA or AMR. I think it's fortunate that some still have a job because if AMR didn't buy them they would all be out on the street!!!
Definition of 'Slaughter' in dictionary: "massacre, carnage".
Anyone disagee? Again, just stating FACTS. AA and their 'unions' conspired to wipe out the employees at TWA from the get-go. It is well-known.
11-09-2005 | 07:10 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Skypilot
What else can you expect from a bunch of prissy cowards who hide behind a website with some high soundin name like "Defending the Profesion"
11-09-2005 | 07:11 AM
#26
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,617
Likes: 0
From: B-737 Pilot
Ckd...?
Originally Posted by CrtyKdwDrrh=rpyhntrsvch
I say again, to all the pilots reading this type of drivel, over the coming months you will be reading much on both C&R and in chat rooms all over the net about how screwed up the PDP is.
The current APA president was asked to sign a simple letter stating that he would not accept a management pilot position after the deal was done. He refused. What more do you lemmings need to hear?
It appears that B757200ER is just one more beaten down pilot who will be hoping for favors or a cushy management pilot job in exchange for helping the crooks that are in office at the moment.
AA pilots, you gave up almost a BILLION dollars. What did you get? More RJs. You foolishly enabled, like an alcoholics wife, the current management to stay in place. AA Flight Attendants, Gate Agents, and Mechanics work under industry leading contracts. While your union is about to come to you for more givebacks.
The current APA president was asked to sign a simple letter stating that he would not accept a management pilot position after the deal was done. He refused. What more do you lemmings need to hear?
It appears that B757200ER is just one more beaten down pilot who will be hoping for favors or a cushy management pilot job in exchange for helping the crooks that are in office at the moment.
AA pilots, you gave up almost a BILLION dollars. What did you get? More RJs. You foolishly enabled, like an alcoholics wife, the current management to stay in place. AA Flight Attendants, Gate Agents, and Mechanics work under industry leading contracts. While your union is about to come to you for more givebacks.
Hey Dude... your username is way to long a confusing to address you by name! Can I just abbreviate and call you CKD?
Anyway...CKD...what is C&R first of all? And why are you so suprised at union guys who eventually gravitate to management? Is'nt that how it is everywhere? Definate conflict of interest, eh? Who is current APA President, and why does HE want to be in management?
Next, you say I'm 'beaten down', well maybe I am after 7 airlines and 5 furloughs, but hey---I'm still working! And I don't seem nearly as disgruntled as you appear to be. I've been offered management jobs and check airman jobs and I'm not interested. I'm a line-guy, period.
About AA, they're just like everybody else, except they're not in Chapter 11---yet. Continental, USAirways, AWA, Delta and United all gave away mainline NB jet flying to regional, code-sharing subsidiaries. RJs are all over now, flying 3 hour stage lengths from major hubs. What does that have to do with AA pilots (or APA) giving up pay and benefits? AA is just continuing the industry standard in the current marketplace---they're replacing F-100/717/MD80 flying with Eagle RJs.
11-09-2005 | 07:24 AM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Uhhh....ok SkyP.
So the guys on reserve, who are now working 1 extra day per month but yet saw no "credit" on our side of the ledger for their "give" are dealing with "pie in the sky"? No value was given by AMR for this..but it's interesting to see your take on it..
You only appear to value what makes it to the SEC. SEC data IS important, but making a decision on the VALUE of Contract concessions based on only 1 data point like SEC data is like "hoping" the ACARS uplinked the flight plan into the FMC ok...and not checking it point by point, line by line against the flight plan.
For example, with all the screwups by AMR in implementing the concessionary agreement as previously mentioned (so much so that Roy Everett had to run a master "shuffle"-TWICE, sending training costs thru the roof!) and which DEFINITELY affected the COSTS listed on the SEC documentation. So is SEC data then worthless because AMR spiked the costs thru incompetence? Heck no! But, it should be viewed with a grain of salt for what it represents. The question needing to be raised is "Who pays" when AMR screws up like this? Sounds (to me) like you think AA Pilots should pony up again, instead of turning and pointing to that given but gone unvalued by management and saying "here's your value-now go fix the factory."
Also, you need to think a little more independently and consider who is better served if AMR over- or under-reports cost savings on contract concessions given the company?
In sum;
APA did a poor job assigning value in 2003 to that which was given.
AMR did a poor job of implementing, spiking costs.
Other employee groups have taken a pass on giving AMR another bite at the apple, yet APA feels compelled to contribute yet again. Why?
Why are APA's leaders so much smarter than the TWU or APFA? Why does our union president who has a debilitating disease (MS) and who's medical status after union office will be problematic, refuse to agree NOT to become part of the management team he's now "negotiating" against? What questions does that raise in the membership's mind?
Finally, as regards to your Eagle comment, as I said earlier Mike Boyd put the $$$ number on the give, not me. It was what his estimate of the COST to the company were APA to have done THAT flying at THAT time...see how that works? As it turns out, it now looks like it WOULD have been cheaper to keep that flying in-house, what with how obvious it is to all that at today's costs that EA (or RJ's in general) are a giant black hole for cash.
ADIRU
So the guys on reserve, who are now working 1 extra day per month but yet saw no "credit" on our side of the ledger for their "give" are dealing with "pie in the sky"? No value was given by AMR for this..but it's interesting to see your take on it..
You only appear to value what makes it to the SEC. SEC data IS important, but making a decision on the VALUE of Contract concessions based on only 1 data point like SEC data is like "hoping" the ACARS uplinked the flight plan into the FMC ok...and not checking it point by point, line by line against the flight plan.
For example, with all the screwups by AMR in implementing the concessionary agreement as previously mentioned (so much so that Roy Everett had to run a master "shuffle"-TWICE, sending training costs thru the roof!) and which DEFINITELY affected the COSTS listed on the SEC documentation. So is SEC data then worthless because AMR spiked the costs thru incompetence? Heck no! But, it should be viewed with a grain of salt for what it represents. The question needing to be raised is "Who pays" when AMR screws up like this? Sounds (to me) like you think AA Pilots should pony up again, instead of turning and pointing to that given but gone unvalued by management and saying "here's your value-now go fix the factory."
Also, you need to think a little more independently and consider who is better served if AMR over- or under-reports cost savings on contract concessions given the company?
In sum;
APA did a poor job assigning value in 2003 to that which was given.
AMR did a poor job of implementing, spiking costs.
Other employee groups have taken a pass on giving AMR another bite at the apple, yet APA feels compelled to contribute yet again. Why?
Why are APA's leaders so much smarter than the TWU or APFA? Why does our union president who has a debilitating disease (MS) and who's medical status after union office will be problematic, refuse to agree NOT to become part of the management team he's now "negotiating" against? What questions does that raise in the membership's mind?
Finally, as regards to your Eagle comment, as I said earlier Mike Boyd put the $$$ number on the give, not me. It was what his estimate of the COST to the company were APA to have done THAT flying at THAT time...see how that works? As it turns out, it now looks like it WOULD have been cheaper to keep that flying in-house, what with how obvious it is to all that at today's costs that EA (or RJ's in general) are a giant black hole for cash.
ADIRU
11-09-2005 | 07:41 AM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by B757200ER
Hey Dude... your username is way to long a confusing to address you by name! Can I just abbreviate and call you CKD?
CrtyKdwDrrh=rpyhntrsvch
Carty Kudwa Darrah = Arpey Hunter Sovich
11-09-2005 | 08:18 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Skypilot
You aledged "cost savings analysis" is just a model based on what you think the line items were worth. And it's completely bogus. Try going to the actual financil reports. You do know what 10-K's, 10-Q's, and Form 41's are, don't you? Let me spell it out. Take the the four quarter prior to May 2003 and the four quarter after, and do the math. That is the ACTUAL cost savings in the first year, not some wild-assed guess. You won't get any wher near $900 mil. Nice try though.
First, PDP did not just assign the value they “thought” the items were worth. The source for all costs but one was APA. The one cost not sourced to APA was the cost saving per furloughee, and this was supplied by a negotiator who was intimately familiar with the pilot cost structure, having been on the committee until late 2002 or early 2003.
Second, have you looked at the 10K for 2002 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...08197z10-k.htm
] and 2003 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...12953e10vk.htm], or the 10Q for 1Q2003 [http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...30/ar1q03g.txt] or 2Q2003
[http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/6...5/ar2q03f.txt?]
Where in these documents does it break out labor costs by employee group? Further, even if it did, you cannot compare before and after snapshots as you try to do. The mere fact that American Airlines may have flown more/fewer block hours than during the prior time period would skew the comparison and render it invalid.
Finally, add the “no value” items to the $660 million admitted to by APA, or the $810 admitted to by Chairman of the Negotiating Committee Ed White on “APA Live”, and you have concessions well in excess of the $936+ million PDP valuation.
Remember, the vast majority of the numbers came from APA and AMR, not PDP. PDP simply added in a few cost items, such as retirement fund contribution savings, FICA savings, and savings attributed to 2100 additional furloughs, conveniently omitted by APA/AMR, and pointed out some other “no value” items, such as Scope, Domestic Codeshare, and several other items.
Originally Posted by Skypilot
Here another one. How bout that piece you sent by Westbrook? The man actualy thinks that parking the fokers increases pilot productivity. He only counts the debt he want to count. What a riot! I've seen some good replies on C&R demolishing his stuff. You guys going to put out the other side? Thought not! "Unbiased" indeed!
11-09-2005 | 08:25 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Skypilot
The contract changes were for REAL dollar changes, not theoretical dollare changes. PDP puts out theoretical numbers and calls them real. Kind of like the old joke that ends with the line, "In theory we're sitting on a milion bucks. In reality we're living with a couple of prostitutes" You can make up whatever screwedup, pie in the sky number you want, but if it doesn't show up on the bottom line, then it doesnt show up on the botom line.
And on the Eagle thing, according to PDP, Eagle LOSES revenue. If so, how's that a PLUS for AA? Seems like you should be subtracting from the numbers instead of adding. Cant have you cake and eat it to.
And on the Eagle thing, according to PDP, Eagle LOSES revenue. If so, how's that a PLUS for AA? Seems like you should be subtracting from the numbers instead of adding. Cant have you cake and eat it to.
Regarding Eagle revenue, how does an entity lose revenue?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
