Airline Pilot Central Forums - Advising ATC of airspeed changes

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Depends on the weight............and the Captain, I know............................ I won't ALLOWED IT!!!!! 180KT HA

In European space there are a number of different types of aircraft from the turbo props to pure jets with various performance perameters operating in high density airspace. With this in mind, ATC assigns radar headings to aircraft during climbs and sometimes during descents. In many cases, ATC will assign a speed during descent or even a minimum rate of descent too. Free speed is usually given to aircraft below FL100 too... even in terminal areas. True there is very little GA adding to the mix which gives ATC more flexibility when it comes to speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddog25 (Post 349342)

Huh??? No more Gin for you sir....If they were climbing at 180 Kts they would need some flaps...Flap 1 in a 320....:cool:

I didn't come up with the 180kts.... United did, when they started the service. All the crews were doing it.... for about one day.

I believe they were all B737's then, and not busses, if that matters to ya. I never asked them their flap setting ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghilis101 (Post 349003)

Wow Tony, as a former controller I figured youd be a little more sympathetic to Seeburg. You were cold as ice!

:confused:

I am sympathetic !!! I gave an example of how a non-standard speed got two planes together. I've been there, done that, for about 20 years, just like the poster. I have no problems with crews announcing their non-standard speeds (or speed changes).

As was noted, frankly, only the most bizarre-o anal controller gives a crap whether your filed speed is M.79 or M.77. What does matter is if you're cruising along at 440kt ground speed (the only thing the controller can see), and you suddenly do something nutso, like change your speed to 380 or 510 over the ground. Now there's likely to be a problem, and it really doesn't matter what your file airspeed is.

Any controller who's been doing this job for any length of time should not only know what every airplane cruises at any given altitude, but also what is typical of different operators with the same plane.

I think the complaint is that now some operators have more than one profile. We do at SkyWest: fuel conservation profile is 200kts to 10k, then 250kt to M.70 or M.74 (CRJ-200 or -700/-900), then cruise at M.74 / M.77.

Or we climb at 290kts if we're in a hurry, and M.77 to M.82 cruise.

I don't feel compelled to tell folks in SLC what speed I'm going to use. They should be intimately familiar with our planes (with several hundred operations per day at SLC) and they always assign a speed anyway. To every plane. That's probably the extreme, but I bet they don't get too many overtakes.

There's really only three basic tools in ATC to keep planes apart. Speed, Heading (route), and altitude. If the controller needs a speed, assign it. If the pilot is gunna do something weird with speed, tell the controller.

Simple, eh?

Tony - if you have a "side" I missed it, as you're contradicting yourself:

I have no problems with crews announcing their non-standard speeds (or speed changes) then:

I don't feel compelled to tell folks in SLC what speed I'm going to use. They should be intimately familiar with our planes then back to:

If the pilot is gunna do something weird with speed, tell the controller.

So which is it? Tell the controller, or keep it a secret? And what exactly is "weird with speed"? In my mind, it's the E135 I just finished working 20 minutes ago, that was being run-over by a Slowtation climbing thru FL220. I asked the E135 his speed...230 kts. ***? I can see where this is going: I'm going to be arbitrarily assigning speeds to every single of the hundreds of aircraft I work a day, if they are remotely close to another. I can't have a slowtation or even a king-air catch what's supposed to be a "real" jet. Why is it, 10,15,19 years ago, this was rarely a problem? Yes the gas is higher now, and the planes act differently. But, I think a lack of cooperation and/or understanding of what it's like on my end has crept into the workforce; at least a few of them.

Finally, you say

Any controller who's been doing this job for any length of time should not only know what every airplane cruises at any given altitude, but also what is typical of different operators with the same plane.

I venture to guess you don't fly East of the Mississippi a lot. I'll have the same airline going to the same airport at the same altitude in the same airplane, doing completely different mach numbers - .68 and .76... I have given up trying to figure it out, that's why I just asked to have a little help from the pilots. If you don't want to help, that's fine. I'll keep 'em apart like I have been doing all along...I've said my peace, goodbye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 348930)

No ridicule ????

You're in the wrong forum.

So, what's in the flight plan concerning my descent speed ? Is it 250 or 320 ? Same for climb. The answer is nothing, of course.

My advice from this side of the mike, control the traffic. Assign speeds if there is the possibility of getting two together.

Now for one of my ATC war stories. When United started their TED service in the mid 90's, they decided to climb at 180 kts. Of course, no memo to ATC. Even though every aircraft was assigned 250kts out of SFO, the first words typically given to the front aircraft by the center was "resume normal speed", of course, ASSUMING they would speed up. Naturally, that first SFO TED departure slowed to 180, while the Challenger jet behind increased to over 300.

Deal.

Vector for spacing, assign speeds to keep it, and don't assume anything. Basic ATC 101.

Tony,

You fly for SKW, right? Are you on the bro? Not sure what their dispatches say these days, but the CRJ is normally planned for these descent profiles:

On time: .77 transition to 300Kts.
Behind Schedule: .77 to 320 kts.

It's on the first page of the release. While it's not technically in the flight plan, if we all followed our profiles, controllers would know what to expect.

I follow them because they save gas (which is good for the environment), they help the code-share's finances (which is indirectly good for SKW), and I block more.

Seeburg,

as a pilot, I have absolutely no way of knowing who's in front of me, nor who's behind me. Let alone the speed I need to fly to ensure separation. If you need a specific speed, please share the info. I'm guessing you don't do many tours out west, but SOCAL's norm departure procedure is guidance for a 280 climb when departing from LAX.

As was pointed out earlier, the paragraph you quoted out of AIM dealt with cruise airspeeds, not climb or descent. During climb or descent, I am going to fly at an airpspeed consistent with my companies policies or one appropriate for the situation. For example, when I am departing the east coast I will fly slower than normal until I am above the inbound flights and get a turn back to the west.....then I reduce my climb rate to accelerate back to normal.

The only thing I have to do during climb/descent has to do with rate of climb. And I promise, I will let you know if I can't do 500'/minute.

I don't get why some people are being lame to Seeburg. He was trying to help us and the system with a positive suggestion. Take it or leave it but don't shoot him down. Lame.

See -- Dually noted. We all know what the usual is and if we choose to fly outside of that we should let you know so that you can prepare accordingly. Thanks for the heads up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeburg220 (Post 348861)

Hi all. This is an anonymous controller, with a tip from my side, that will help everyone in the long run...

You can help by informing us if you plan to fly significantly different than what your flight plan is filed for. Thanks for reading this and please take it only as a view from the ground, and not ridicule.

Thanks for keeping us safe, ofcourse I will let you know if I change my speed. While on the topic, is anything being done to get the RJ into a Right lane (or similar..)? Seems like we always get speed restricted after we take off behind an RJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeburg220 (Post 348861)

(I posted this in the Regional section also)

Hi all. This is an anonymous controller, with a tip from my side, that will help everyone in the long run...

More and more, with fuel prices, etc, airlines are adjusting their airspeeds to meet their particular needs. A big problem is that a lot (not all) of pilots are doing this without informing ATC. Routinely, we'll get two identical aircraft from the same airline, departing the same airport 10 miles in trail. The front guy will be climbing at 230kts and the back guy at 320. Center separation is usually 5 miles, so it doesn't take very long at all from when I take the hand-off from approach, (and the back guy leaves 10000 feet and firewalls it), for him to catch his company in front, who's doing the econo-climb.

I've been doing this job for 20 years. When I started, you could always count on some airlines to fly fast, and others slow. It made for instant recognition when I saw the call sign, that I'd better double-check for over-takes.

Today, it's impossible, because like-types within the same airline are doing completely different things. We've been having a lot of "deals" (operational errors) because of this. Operating too slow or too fast hurts us, in that, we get de-certified, and lately, will lose money if we do. If we have too many deals (more than 3), we'll be fired.

You can help by informing us if you plan to fly significantly different than what your flight plan is filed for. In fact the Airman's Information Manual (AIM), while not an FAA "Order" (like the 7110.65 Air Traffic Handbook), says:

5-5-9. Speed Adjustments

a. Pilot.

1. Advises ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan.

Now, technically, it says "cruising airspeed", but I think they meant to differentiate it from when you're on an approach. If you're on a SID, there's a good chance there's a plane in front or behind you.

Thanks for reading this and please take it only as a view from the ground, and not ridicule.

Thanks for the heads-up. Why don't they just publish mandatory speeds on busy SID's and Arrivals? Wouldn't it ensure more even separation and save a lot of talking on the radio? (Always a good thing). Even if they only did it during peak hours, it would still be a lot less hassle on both sides of the mike.