I am reading this thread and cannot understand what your guys' problem is? Is it that hard to say a speed when it deviates from normal profile?

Dont be smartasses quoting different company manuals showing high speed climb/econ climb/and slow climb..... this ain't company and nobody was asking you to do a carpet dance to explain why you wanted to climb/cruise/decent at 250 the whole way to make block and get block or better back on property. The guy asked for CRM, we do it with our first officers, with our flight attendants with our captains and dispatchers.... why not ATC? Since when are they deemed mind readers?

I know I'd like this guy to spare my soul the day I goof up due to our GREAT rest requirements!

He is pointing out a change in the industry that has to do with discipline or maybe the lack of thereof for reasons that are beyond any one single person' control.

Show some cooperation guys, and stop worrying about every word you say over the radio.

A certain large 737 Texas headquarterd airline is implementing slower climb and much slower descent speeds than in the past.....sometimes doing a 260kt descent. Their flight ops is saying it adds just a minute or two to a 500 mile flight yet saves a lot of gas. It's driving controllers and the pilots crazy though. One pilot there told me he flies the 260kt descent till he gets close to the SID crossing with a mandated 280kt speed, speeds up to comply, then slows back down to 260 again after crossing! LOL.

Schone,

I do exercise CRM with the controllers. When they tell me to do something that doesn't make sense or I don't understand the comm, I ask. I don't assume that the turn right to 090 was wrong when I was flyingwith a southerly heading and just make a left turn to the assigned heading, I ask the question.

And I don't expect them to read my mind to determine what speed I'm flying, I expect them to use their radar. And, if there's a speed problem, I am more than willing to slow down, speed up, go direct, turn left/right for the climb, take a lower altitude to solve the problem. But, until I get the same tools in my cockpit a controller has in his office, there's not much I can do to mitigate any potential separation problems. Maybe when (if) ADS-B comes online I will be able to help out more.

If my company ponies up the bucks for it. And they might not if they can figure a way to wiggle out of it.
I'll tell ya, my company's pretty cheap. Right now we have planes flying w/out GPS/RNAV capability and without ACARs. Guys filling out the paper crew pay logs.

(I posted this in the Regional forum as well)

Wow, between this thread and the "crazy ATC instructions" thread, it's pretty east to tell how disconnected we are from each other, for a group of folks that work together every day.

I have read both threads with great interest. I am a pilot and a center controller.

A couple of things from my perspective (fwiw);

1) The controller work force is going through a changing of the guard so to speak. All the controllers that were hired after the strike in '81 are now eligible to retire. The FAA did a terrible job hiring to replace them in time. In a center you can expect anywhere from 3-5 years to get through the training pipeline. This is some of the reason you guys have been hearing one set of instructions, followed by another set of different instructions issued by a different voice. Not to be a pessimist but, you can expect this to continue for the next several years...it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Tony Williams mentioned it in the other thread, lots of new guys and lots of labor relations issues.

2) After 9/11 the FAA thought it would be a good idea to kill the fam program (where controllers used to be able to jump seat). Now, it's been gone for so long that newer controllers and pilots, in some cases, have never had any face to face interaction. How can you provide a service to people when, in some cases, have never set foot in the environment that they operate in. Was the fam system abused? maybe in some cases. Did it need to be overhauled? Probably. Was it a terrible idea to take it away completely? Absolutely.

3) As far as the "crazy instructions" are concerned; FAA order 7110.65 is pretty explicit as to what we can say/do and what we can't. With that being said, the order has a lot of things in it that I would never use, for a variety of reasons, with the number one reason being that some of the authorized instructions are just plain confusing to pilots, I know because I fly too. Their are really several types of controllers (just my opinion here); ones that will protect themselves at all costs, ones that try really hard to provide a service to you guys (w/ safety taking top priority), and ones that try hard to find that middle ground and do both. Just like flying an airplane, there are rules and procedures that are hard and fast, black and white, but, you bring your own style of flying to it as well. In much the same way, controllers follow the black and white, hard and fast rules from the 7110.65 but, they all manage their airspace, traffic conflictions, departures, and arrivals in a little different manner. Example, if two airplanes are converging at FL350 and the controller is not busy he/she may say "SKW92A your converging w/ another aircraft, I can climb or descend you or turn you 20 left, which would you prefer"? If he's really busy, and FL330 is clean, you'll probably here "SKW92A, for traffic descend and maintain FL330". It all depends on the controller and what is going on. Sometimes the controller will be working multiple frequencies and while it may not seem busy to you, the controller might be jumping through a ton of hoops.

Bottom line, its' your AND OUR responsibility to get passengers home safely. Like any working relationship, all kinds of factors (attitude, experience level, ego, etc.) make it tough at times. We need to keep in mind that we are all on the same team here.

Lastly, there is a post here on Communicating For Safety in Chicago. This is a symposium pot on by the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. It starts on Monday, so if you're not already going, you probably missed it this year but, I think it would be great to get as many pilots/controllers together as possible, especially since we lost the fam program. Here's the link http://cfs.natca.net/

Lately the number of delays and deviations during a flight have just about become unbearable, thereby causing massive diverts (VERY expensive to the airlines). It seems that little is being addressed to expedite a B-777 into it's destination after a 15 hour flight so that an RJ isn't inconvenienced (just an example so don't get defensive) even though they are both in the same holding pattern. (After a recent 5.5 hour flight from Ecuador, we had to divert into Philly since the controller told us he had to get the 3 RJ's below us in holding out FIRST, since we were international, we couldn't let the pax off the plane.........VERY expensive divert since we were only 10 mins from our destination and the WX was CLEAR!!) With fuel getting so out of hand, it looks like the controllers would start trying to help the "big guys" out a bit more. I see so many RJ's, turboprops, business jets, etc., try to leave at the same time, with a 747, 777, or A-340 waiting in line for an hour or more to leave. Someone HAS to understand it costs a LOT of money to keep these big guys moving 100' at a clip while moving to the runway. So what is my point here? By the time many of us are airborne, we're already concerned about the fuel on board, therefore we start slowing down to conserve. Maybe if our ATC system was updated (at least to the 80's or better) we'd be in better shape. For now, I think it's only going to get worse as fuel gets more expensive. Something is going to have to change............:(

With fuel getting so out of hand, it looks like the controllers would start trying to help the "big guys" out a bit more.

Ewrbasedpilot I would like to be able to apply that level of logic to what I do on a daily basis, BUT my benevolent employer (FAA) says it's "first come, first served" So should I choose to think outside the box and provide that service and then the pedantic supervisor recieves a phone call as to why this flight recieved pref. treatment I guarantee you I get screwed; no matter how logical an argument I make.
Also the info provided on arrival "strips" mentions nothing about your flight's point of departure so atc is not aware of how long you've been flying; though in general in todays enviroment the larger the ac the longer the flight. I know it doesn't help solve the problem but I hope it gives a glimpse as to the world that I now work in.

HM79 -

"says it's "first come, first served"

I know this my question doesn't take into account activities at larger airports, but generally on the ground doesn't outbound traffic have right of way over inbound traffic [meaning an outbound flight heading to the runway has right of way over an aircraft taxiing back to his line?]

USMCFLYR

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf


Section 7. Speed Adjustment
5−7−1. APPLICATION
Keep speed adjustments to the minimum necessary to
achieve or maintain required or desired spacing.
Avoid adjustments requiring alternate decreases and
increases. Permit pilots to resume normal speed when
previously specified adjustments are no longer
needed.
NOTE−
It is the pilot’s responsibility and prerogative to refuse
speed adjustment that he/she considers excessive or
contrary to the aircraft’s operating specifications.
a. Consider the following when applying speed
control:
1. Determine the interval required and the point
at which the interval is to be accomplished.
2. Implement speed adjustment based on the
following principles.
(a) Priority of speed adjustment instructions
is determined by the relative speed and position of the
aircraft involved and the spacing requirement.
(b) Speed adjustments are not achieved
instantaneously. Aircraft configuration, altitudes,
and speed determine the time and distance required to
accomplish the adjustment.
3. Use the following techniques in speed control
situations:
(a) Compensate for compression when assigning
air speed adjustment in an in-trail situation by
using one of the following techniques:
(1) Reduce the trailing aircraft first.
(2) Increase the leading aircraft first.
(b) Assign a specific airspeed if required to
maintain spacing.
(c) Allow increased time and distance to
achieve speed adjustments in the following situations:
(1) Higher altitudes.
(2) Greater speed.
(3) Clean configurations.
(d) Ensure that aircraft are allowed to operate
in a clean configuration as long as circumstances
permit.
(e) Keep the number of speed adjustments per
aircraft to the minimum required to achieve and
maintain spacing.
b. Do not assign speed adjustment to aircraft:
1. At or above FL 390 without pilot consent.
2. Executing a published high altitude instrument
approach procedure.
3. In a holding pattern.
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Holding Instructions, Para 4−6−4.
4. Inside the final approach fix on final or a point
5 miles from the runway, whichever is closer to the
runway.
c. At the time approach clearance is issued,
previously issued speed adjustments shall be restated
if required.
d. Approach clearances cancel any previously
assigned speed adjustment. Pilots are expected to
make their own speed adjustments to complete the
approach unless the adjustments are restated.
e. Express speed adjustments in terms of knots
based on indicated airspeed (IAS) in 10−knot
increments. At or above FL 240, speeds may be
expressed in terms of Mach numbers in 0.01 increments
for turbojet aircraft with Mach meters
(i.e., Mach 0.69, 0.70, 0.71, etc.).
NOTE−
1. Pilots complying with speed adjustment instructions
should maintain a speed within plus or minus 10 knots or
0.02 Mach number of the specified speed.
2. When assigning speeds to achieve spacing between
aircraft at different altitudes, consider that ground speed
may vary with altitude. Further speed adjustment may be
necessary to attain the desired spacing.
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Methods, Para 5−7−2.
7110.65R 2/16/06
5−7−2 Speed Adjustment
5−7−2. METHODS
a. Instruct aircraft to:
1. Maintain present/specific speed.
2. Maintain specified speed or greater/less.
3. Maintain the highest/lowest practical speed.
4. Increase or reduce to a specified speed or by
a specified number of knots.
PHRASEOLOGY−
SAY AIRSPEED.
SAY MACH NUMBER.
MAINTAIN PRESENT SPEED.
MAINTAIN (specific speed) KNOTS.
MAINTAIN (specific speed) KNOTS OR GREATER.
DO NOT EXCEED (speed) KNOTS.
MAINTAIN MAXIMUM FORWARD SPEED.
MAINTAIN SLOWEST PRACTICAL SPEED.
INCREASE/REDUCE SPEED:
TO (specified speed in knots),
or
TO MACH (Mach number),
or
(number of knots) KNOTS.
EXAMPLE−
“Increase speed to Mach point seven two.”
“Reduce speed to two five zero.”
“Reduce speed twenty knots.”
“Maintain two eight zero knots.”
“Maintain maximum forward speed.”
NOTE−
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an
assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is
expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when
cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace,
without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with
the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without
notification.
2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft
operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the
U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E
airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace
underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an
airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as
a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with
the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR
Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and
91.703.)
3. The phrases “maintain maximum forward speed” and
“maintain slowest practical speed” are primarily intended
for use when sequencing a group of aircraft. As the
sequencing plan develops, it may be necessary to
determine the specific speed and/or make specific speed
assignments.
b. To obtain pilot concurrence for a speed
adjustment at or above FL 390, as required by
para 5−7−1, Application, use the following phraseology.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Speed adjustment), IF UNABLE ADVISE.
EXAMPLE−
“Reduce speed to one niner zero, if unable advise.”
c. Simultaneous speed reduction and descent can
be extremely difficult, particularly for turbojet
aircraft. Specifying which action is to be accomplished
first removes any doubt the pilot may have as
to controller intent or priority. Specify which action is
expected first when combining speed reduction with
a descent clearance.
1. Speed reductions prior to descent.
PHRASEOLOGY−
REDUCE SPEED:
TO (specified speed),
or
(number of knots) KNOTS.
THEN, DESCEND AND MAINTAIN (altitude).
2. Speed reduction following descent.
PHRASEOLOGY−
DESCEND AND MAINTAIN (altitude).
THEN, REDUCE SPEED:
TO (specified speed in knots),
or
2/16/06 7110.65R
Speed Adjustment 5−7−3
TO MACH (Mach number),
or
(number of knots) KNOTS.
NOTE−
When specifying descent prior to speed reduction, consider
the maximum speed requirements specified in 14 CFR
Section 91.117. It may be necessary for the pilot to level off
temporarily and reduce speed prior to descending below
10,000 feet MSL.
d. Specify combined speed/altitude fix crossing
restrictions.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CROSS (fix) AT AND MAINTAIN (altitude) AT (specified
speed) KNOTS.
EXAMPLE−
“Cross Robinsville at and maintain six thousand at
two three zero knots.”
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Numbers Usage, Para 2−4−17.
FAAO 7110.65, Altitude Information, Para 4−5−7.
5−7−3. MINIMA
When assigning airspeeds, use the following
recommended minima:
a. To aircraft operating between FL 280 and
10,000 feet, a speed not less than 250 knots or the
equivalent Mach number.
NOTE−
1. On a standard day the Mach numbers equivalent to
250 knots CAS (subject to minor variations) are:
FL 240−0.6
FL 250−0.61
FL 260−0.62
FL 270−0.64
FL 280−0.65
FL 290−0.66.
2. If a pilot is unable to comply with the speed assignment,
the pilot will advise.
b. When an operational advantage will be
realized, speeds lower than the recommended
minima may be applied.
c. To arrival aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:
1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than
210 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying
miles of the runway threshold of the airport of
intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.
2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft.
A speed not less than 200 knots; except when the
aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway
threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed
not less than 150 knots.
d. Departures:
1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than
230 knots.
2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft.
A speed not less than 150 knots.
e. Helicopters. A speed not less than 60 knots.
REFERENCE−
FAAO 7110.65, Methods, Para 5−7−2.
5−7−4. TERMINATION
Advise aircraft when speed adjustment is no longer
needed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME NORMAL SPEED.
NOTE−
An instruction to “resume normal speed” does not delete
speed restrictions that are applicable to published
procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless
specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot
of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR
Section 91.117.

USMCFLYR

I can only answer based on what happens at JFK. As a general thought inbound traffic is given priority over outbound traffic and the term priority is hyperbole. I feel, and teach the masses of new trainees that in MY opinion outbound traffic is almost always taxiing on one engine, usually has to get final numbers from dispatch, has to run through preflight checklists, etc. and therefore will tend to move at a slower rate than inbound flights hoping for a gate.