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Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 349684)
See -- Dually noted. We all know what the usual is and if we choose to fly outside of that we should let you know so that you can prepare accordingly. Thanks for the heads up.
help me out here, what exactly is the usual speed I'm supposed to be flying while climbing above 10k. I admit to only taking a brief look for it in AIM and the FARs, but, just couldn't find it. I will that I have been part of the problem since I have flown acft w/ climb speeds ranging from 200 KIAS to 340....each time I get above 10k I just willfully ignore the usual speed out of ignorance of the correct speed. I will also admit that I don't always fly 250 in the descent below 10 either. Sometimes I fly slower if it is appropriate for the situation, but, if my the PM can get a word in edgewise, usually try and point out that I've slowed to the controller |
Fishfinders!
What seems to be missing from this thread is the need to cover each other's bacon. Help the controllers out! A little SA would also help using available tools(see title). One of my fondest memories was a request for an airspeed increase of 500kts. The controller chuckeled, heard "Pony flt, burners now.", stopped laughing and we doubled our speed at FL390. (F104) My apologies to the SR71 drivers.:D
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As an FO, I know exactly what he's taking about.
I see all varieties of climb speeds. In an Airbus, normal speed is managed speed, yet some CAs want to climb at green dot to the mid 20s, while others want 320 or better coming thru 10k. So there I sit, waiting for the controller to say, "Say speed". "210". "Can you pick that up any?" "Tell him we can do 250" At which point, I want to say, "You tell him why you're a TOOL!" |
Maybe this problem is what causes the Indy approach controllers to slow everyone to 180kts 15 miles out then put everyone 10 miles in trail for the visual.
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As a new guy to the airlines, I came off the top rope with all of the date rules like "vacating an altitude." Ten minutes after being told to cross a fix at 290, I would call leaving 390. The captain would look at me with a puzzled face as the controller gave a "like I care" type of call. I even tried to tell ATC that we were speeding up when the company sent an ACARS message to us to cross a fix at a certain time. Same response from both (kind of the "pipe down, Junior" call). I don't have a lot of experience in the civilian side of aviation -- I made controllers happy when I checked in with them and told them that I wasn't going to crash my Harrier in THEIR sector. Simpler times. I would like to hear more of the ATC side of the house. Afterall, this is now my paycheck. I don't want to screw it away over a simple radio call. Keep 'em coming ATC.
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I agree, I think the call from Seeburg was just to have better co-operation period. Seems like may a times we act as we are on different sides of the fence. We wish for a time to say something smarty pantsy to each other or catch a mistake or such. We both rely on each side of the mike to act professionally and that means to be courteous and helpful as much as practical and possible.
Just cause one guy on either side **** you off don't stop being professional to the next guy you talk to. Both jobs have their unique challenges and demands and our system being as fatigued and busy as it is demands teamwork. That said most times I feel that all in all that is what we do have,, even though it can be a challenge to get what you want sometimes, but the kinder and earlier you ask the better chance you have to get your way. |
We use 300 kts in the climb and descent as our normal profile. It used to be on the release until we switched over to the USAir dispatch system.
More and more SIDs are using speed restrictions for the outbound legs. CLT is a prime example, 280 kts until Center relieves the speed restriction. ATL and HOU and LAX have always wanted a 250 kt climb ASAP. We have a profile for a standard departure to climb at BSEC (Vref plus 80 in the 757) until 3000 feet agl. I love to ask check airmen if we are supposed to fly the company climb profile for safety or do the ATC speed. Many different replies. |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 349799)
help me out here, what exactly is the usual speed I'm supposed to be flying while climbing above 10k. I admit to only taking a brief look for it in AIM and the FARs, but, just couldn't find it.
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Originally Posted by Seeburg220
(Post 348861)
(I posted this in the Regional section also)
Hi all. This is an anonymous controller, with a tip from my side, that will help everyone in the long run... More and more, with fuel prices, etc, airlines are adjusting their airspeeds to meet their particular needs. A big problem is that a lot (not all) of pilots are doing this without informing ATC. Routinely, we'll get two identical aircraft from the same airline, departing the same airport 10 miles in trail. The front guy will be climbing at 230kts and the back guy at 320. Center separation is usually 5 miles, so it doesn't take very long at all from when I take the hand-off from approach, (and the back guy leaves 10000 feet and firewalls it), for him to catch his company in front, who's doing the econo-climb. I've been doing this job for 20 years. When I started, you could always count on some airlines to fly fast, and others slow. It made for instant recognition when I saw the call sign, that I'd better double-check for over-takes. Today, it's impossible, because like-types within the same airline are doing completely different things. We've been having a lot of "deals" (operational errors) because of this. Operating too slow or too fast hurts us, in that, we get de-certified, and lately, will lose money if we do. If we have too many deals (more than 3), we'll be fired. You can help by informing us if you plan to fly significantly different than what your flight plan is filed for. In fact the Airman's Information Manual (AIM), while not an FAA "Order" (like the 7110.65 Air Traffic Handbook), says: 5-5-9. Speed Adjustments a. Pilot. 1. Advises ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan. Now, technically, it says "cruising airspeed", but I think they meant to differentiate it from when you're on an approach. If you're on a SID, there's a good chance there's a plane in front or behind you. Thanks for reading this and please take it only as a view from the ground, and not ridicule. |
Originally Posted by capncrunch
(Post 350111)
You looked in the FARs on how to fly your particular aircraft....that is your first problem.
Shoot, for awhile I looked in the NOTAMS to see what speed I could fly into Houston. There is zippo guidance on what airpspeed we "should" be flying above 10k to help the controllers out. Nor, is there a block for climb/descent airpspeed when you file for a clearance. Would be interesting to listen in to the WX-BRIEF pilot filing for the flight asking the FSS guy if he wants his climb airspeed. There is absolutely know way for me to "know" what airpseed the guy in front of me is flying. TCAS doesn't display relative closure, and I've been in more than one plane where the relative angle and distance weren't as calibrated as I'd like. So, absent any guidance on the SID or STAR- verbiage from the controllers, I am going to fly whatever airspeed I think is appropriate to the situation. Shoot, even if I'm flying 60 KIAS faster than the guy in front of me, that's still 5 minutes before I'm close enough to be truly concerned, assuming 5 miles in trail. And that's also assuming we are climbing at the exact same rate of speed. IF he's climbing at 3k/min and I'm only doing 1k, even though at some point in time I am going to pass him, the altitude separation will be more than sufficient by the time I'm directly below him. |
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