Pilot response to Washington Post Article
05-05-2008, 04:16 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Freddy driver
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by pilot141
Quoted for truth.
Read any book about the early airline business and you will find that this was the case. "Fate is the Hunter" would be a good place to start.
Read any book about the early airline business and you will find that this was the case. "Fate is the Hunter" would be a good place to start.
Every pilot out there, private all the way through ATP, from military to corporate, has a duty and obligation to be safe. If you feel that you can only do that because you have a "senority" based system, then you need to find your convictions.
If someone tries to pin me to the wall because I didn't move the mission according to their plans, then I have the Inspector General that I can go to and lodge a formal complaint. I am protected when I call "safety."
Senority does nothing to make people safe. People make people safe. That is why we have the upgrade process, whichever way you slice it. Without that base of knowledge and experience, then you would have people making decisions that they may not be ready to make. To rationalize your argument, you are saying that airline pilots are safer than military pilots because of the system that regulates their upgrades?
I am a safe pilot because the people that have tought and instructed me and the people that I have learned lessons from took the time to instill in me the desire to be safe and make good decisions. People did that, not a system.
Please understand me when I say that the senority system is flawed, and so is the merit system. Neither is perfect. The reason why they are not perfect is because they rely on inperfect people to make them work.
If you are happy with the system, then great, but if you're unhappy then you should seek change. Just my humble opinion.
05-05-2008, 07:21 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by WAFP
To quote both of you, I have the same ability in the military. If I make a call for safety then that is it. No amount of pressure from anyone can force me into an unsafe decision. If you believe that the only way to ensure that is to have a senority based system then that is sad.
Every pilot out there, private all the way through ATP, from military to corporate, has a duty and obligation to be safe. If you feel that you can only do that because you have a "senority" based system, then you need to find your convictions.
If someone tries to pin me to the wall because I didn't move the mission according to their plans, then I have the Inspector General that I can go to and lodge a formal complaint. I am protected when I call "safety."
Senority does nothing to make people safe. People make people safe. That is why we have the upgrade process, whichever way you slice it. Without that base of knowledge and experience, then you would have people making decisions that they may not be ready to make. To rationalize your argument, you are saying that airline pilots are safer than military pilots because of the system that regulates their upgrades?
I am a safe pilot because the people that have tought and instructed me and the people that I have learned lessons from took the time to instill in me the desire to be safe and make good decisions. People did that, not a system.
Please understand me when I say that the senority system is flawed, and so is the merit system. Neither is perfect. The reason why they are not perfect is because they rely on inperfect people to make them work.
If you are happy with the system, then great, but if you're unhappy then you should seek change. Just my humble opinion.
Every pilot out there, private all the way through ATP, from military to corporate, has a duty and obligation to be safe. If you feel that you can only do that because you have a "senority" based system, then you need to find your convictions.
If someone tries to pin me to the wall because I didn't move the mission according to their plans, then I have the Inspector General that I can go to and lodge a formal complaint. I am protected when I call "safety."
Senority does nothing to make people safe. People make people safe. That is why we have the upgrade process, whichever way you slice it. Without that base of knowledge and experience, then you would have people making decisions that they may not be ready to make. To rationalize your argument, you are saying that airline pilots are safer than military pilots because of the system that regulates their upgrades?
I am a safe pilot because the people that have tought and instructed me and the people that I have learned lessons from took the time to instill in me the desire to be safe and make good decisions. People did that, not a system.
Please understand me when I say that the senority system is flawed, and so is the merit system. Neither is perfect. The reason why they are not perfect is because they rely on inperfect people to make them work.
If you are happy with the system, then great, but if you're unhappy then you should seek change. Just my humble opinion.
05-05-2008, 07:53 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 777
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by WAFP
Please understand me when I say that the senority system is flawed, and so is the merit system. Neither is perfect. The reason why they are not perfect is because they rely on inperfect people to make them work.
If you are happy with the system, then great, but if you're unhappy then you should seek change. Just my humble opinion.
If you are happy with the system, then great, but if you're unhappy then you should seek change. Just my humble opinion.
Two points:
First, A seniority based system does not rely on "flawed" individuals to make my career progression happen. It's DOH and my ability to pass the process - period.
Second, Most of us seem happy to be part of this "civilian" system. How and what are you basing your opinion on this system?? You are on the outside looking in, right? So until you have walked a mile in my shoes....
And before you ask... 10 years flying fighters in the Navy, 1 year at a commuter, 2 years at a PAX and 10 years at FedEx...So yes, I have seen both systems and each works for its respective enviroment...
05-05-2008, 08:49 AM
#104
Avoiding Memphis
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Intl Feeder Jet
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by WAFP
If you believe that the only way to ensure that is to have a senority based system then that is sad.
This was a "merit-based" system - the problem was who determined "merit". If it's the bean-counters wanting to push the most amount of metal for the lowest cost, the guy who hangs it out there by taking the aircraft in bad WX or with known MX problems is the "best" pilot. A guy who cancels because of safety concerns is a "bad" pilot.
See the difference?
05-05-2008, 09:44 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Freddy driver
Posts: 154
Just because I haven't been on both sides of the coin, doesn't mean that I have to walk in your shoes to make a decision on what I believe is better.
My point is this; why make someone wait to upgrade when they are ready to do so?
Since the airlines are all about the $$, why would you want to wait to make more (if that is what you want to do) if you could do it in a lesser amount of time?
Senority works because you have accepted it. When enough people decide that they don't accept it anymore, it will change. Not saying that it will happen, but that is how it will happen.
I am on the outside looking in. I may change my mind when in your shoes many years down the road, but now, I just happen to have different views.
My point is this; why make someone wait to upgrade when they are ready to do so?
Since the airlines are all about the $$, why would you want to wait to make more (if that is what you want to do) if you could do it in a lesser amount of time?
Senority works because you have accepted it. When enough people decide that they don't accept it anymore, it will change. Not saying that it will happen, but that is how it will happen.
I am on the outside looking in. I may change my mind when in your shoes many years down the road, but now, I just happen to have different views.
05-05-2008, 09:54 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Freddy driver
Posts: 154
Okay everyone, here it is. 99.99% of the people who have posted on this thread think I am smoking crack.
I am not here to change the world, just offer up an opinion. I wish I could persuade everyone to think my way, but if that were the case then I'd be a rich man.
If you are happy with the senority system, raise your hand....22..456....1,233.......871,901....okay, that is a lot of people!
I don't think I have it in me to continue this. Why? Because the people that have responded seem happy. As a good friend of mine has said "The World is headed to Hell and a Hand basket on a rocketship!" I don't want to cause discontent or unhappiness.
I will agree to disagree. Cool? I DO hope to be in your shoes some day. I also love the military.
Thanks to all you airline guys for being "unnoticed" and having to wait your turn. It will be your turn someday. I wish everyone nothing but success.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their opinions. Next time you see a C-5 or hear a "Reach" callsign, that could be me.
I wish everyone clear skies and safe flying!
I am not here to change the world, just offer up an opinion. I wish I could persuade everyone to think my way, but if that were the case then I'd be a rich man.
If you are happy with the senority system, raise your hand....22..456....1,233.......871,901....okay, that is a lot of people!
I don't think I have it in me to continue this. Why? Because the people that have responded seem happy. As a good friend of mine has said "The World is headed to Hell and a Hand basket on a rocketship!" I don't want to cause discontent or unhappiness.
I will agree to disagree. Cool? I DO hope to be in your shoes some day. I also love the military.
Thanks to all you airline guys for being "unnoticed" and having to wait your turn. It will be your turn someday. I wish everyone nothing but success.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their opinions. Next time you see a C-5 or hear a "Reach" callsign, that could be me.
I wish everyone clear skies and safe flying!
05-05-2008, 09:09 PM
#107
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 90
Dude (WAFP),
I too am military. 19 years now between active and reserve. There is a huge hole in your thesis here. In every squadron in the military, you upgrade based on time, experience, and readiness (in theory). There is zero limt on the ratio of Aircraft Commanders(Captains) to Copilots(First Officers). A Squadron can have all AC's if it wants/can. Not so in the airlines! Ain't gonna happen. Forgive me if this has been stated before as I am a month behind on this thread. In the military, an AC is dual qual'd in both seats. In the reserves/guard, often a crew will have 2 if not 3 AC's on an augmented crew. The military,while more merit based than the seniority system, it is not nearly as much so as you make it out. This coming from an AC/IP/EP in 2 different MWS's. Airlines will not make guys Captains just because they are ready! It is based on need. A cost issue! You don't want a merit system! It would be hard to judge/enact. How do you grade the ILS?
I have never been a Captain at an airline. Been at 3 now, but yet I understand the system. I have always felt a vital part of the crew and unafraid to give my input. My job is to keep the Captain out of trouble! I learn from them and perhaps they at times learn from me. I will give my inputs asked for or not-- he/she will decide. This is just like the military. And in the military, sometimes both are qualified in command but one is designated to make the decisions!
Regards,
ConnerP out
I too am military. 19 years now between active and reserve. There is a huge hole in your thesis here. In every squadron in the military, you upgrade based on time, experience, and readiness (in theory). There is zero limt on the ratio of Aircraft Commanders(Captains) to Copilots(First Officers). A Squadron can have all AC's if it wants/can. Not so in the airlines! Ain't gonna happen. Forgive me if this has been stated before as I am a month behind on this thread. In the military, an AC is dual qual'd in both seats. In the reserves/guard, often a crew will have 2 if not 3 AC's on an augmented crew. The military,while more merit based than the seniority system, it is not nearly as much so as you make it out. This coming from an AC/IP/EP in 2 different MWS's. Airlines will not make guys Captains just because they are ready! It is based on need. A cost issue! You don't want a merit system! It would be hard to judge/enact. How do you grade the ILS?
I have never been a Captain at an airline. Been at 3 now, but yet I understand the system. I have always felt a vital part of the crew and unafraid to give my input. My job is to keep the Captain out of trouble! I learn from them and perhaps they at times learn from me. I will give my inputs asked for or not-- he/she will decide. This is just like the military. And in the military, sometimes both are qualified in command but one is designated to make the decisions!
Regards,
ConnerP out
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