If you think that your upgrade is based solely on your flying you are wrong. Much of it is based on what you do outside of flying, your commitment to the team, your additional duties, etc. They expect you to be a good pilot. You will upgrade on time if you show yourself to be a competent pilot and put in the effort outside of flying they are looking for.

Before I came to the airlines, I flew FRED as well and had some of the same feelings as you about the seniority system. However, now that I am in it, I understand why it is the only system that can work. We don't see our bosses much unless we screw up and they don't have the time to write performance reports on us just so we can upgrade people a bit earlier or later. And I don't really want to be a Snack-O or start a Yoga group in the pilot lounge in order to help my chances of upgrade!

 

There's been documented proof of fatigue in the military causing accidents by guys trying to conform. One in particular was an F-16 guy who was taking masters classes(to make rank) at night and working all day. Fatigue was a factor in his death according to the accident board. I hardly think the mil system is superior. Seniority like democracy isn't perfect but to date, it's better than anything else out there.

 

WAFP -

I understand the frustration but please be careful with comments like the above highlighted. I never really wanted to believe all the hype - but that comment smacks of the "I'm a pilot first and a military officer second" attitude.

Was I brainwashed from day one in the Corps to believe that I was a Marine Officer first and foremost and a pilot second (even the old axiom of being always a rifleman first?) Maybe, but I've had this discussion before when someone called me a *professional pilot*. I'm not - I'm a Marine whose weapon system happens to fly. Like we were talking about earlier, my pay remains the same now whether I fly or not. I was told by my first Operations Officer in the fleet squadron that only ONE box on my fitness report had anything to do with my flying ability.

If all you really wanted to do was fly with no other responsibility then either your recruiter/advisor lied to you about what you would be doing in the AF or you should have gone civilian from the start. Oh...and before you jump to conclusions...yes I've spent my fair time out of the cockpit

As for me.....I can't wait to fly civilian and *flying* being my only responsibility.

USMCFLYR

 

TD -

"Like I said what if that SWA that skid off the end of the runway at ORD happened and the media found out there were different levels of qualifications and the guy landing was of the lowest qualification? Can you imagine how much they could blow things out of proportion? "

Didn't this already happen at least once when the media made a big deal out of reporting that FO was landing and not the CA? If I remember the weather was challenging, but still.

USMCFLYR

 

I respectfully disagree with you. The whole idea is not to give pilots the choice to compromise integrity to get ahead, sooner or later someone would. The safety of our passengers should not hang on whether the guys up front think flying a broken airplane will get them ahead in management's eyes. I have flown for a "fly it or your fired" airline and the pressure from the top can be heavy, especially in a tight job market. Believe it or not those who push the limit get the upgrades. As for "removing the human condition" to see the merits of your system, how do you do that when humans make the decisions for upgrades? Your system sounds good on paper, but when exposed to the human condition it fails because people inject emotion into decisions. Pilots would be snubbed for personality conflicts and other non performance related issues. Until you work in the civilian world you may not see the benefits of a strong union and the seniority system. Seniority has flaws for sure but it's the best system we have for now. At least I know I won't get furloughed before someone junior because he was the Chief Pilot's son or buddy. How would your system prevent that? Are we to depend on the honor system from management? Get back to us after a few years on the line. On a side note, thanks for your service.

 

Agreed. The seniority system doesn't select captains we all still have to pass the training and practical tests. It merely determines the pecking order. And if for whatever reason a candidate is unable to pass, the slot is not filled and the next qualified pilot takes his shot. Either you are qualified to pass the test or not.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImEbee

Agreed. The seniority system doesn't select captains we all still have to pass the training and practical tests. It merely determines the pecking order. And if for whatever reason a candidate is unable to pass, the slot is not filled and the next qualified pilot takes his shot. Either you are qualified to pass the test or not.

I agree here - We have to keep in mind, the window of ability required to upgrade, advance, etc. is typically the same size for everyone but it IS a "window" and not a "point in space" as the FAA, Airlines, flight dept. AND even the military have a set of "minimum standards" to achieve the next higher goal, upgrade, etc.
That said, the operative words are "minimum standards" - So, a pilot then in theory, only has to "perform" to the minimum standards (edges of the window) during their tenure of whatever denomination to acquire an adequate job rating and the rewards - in the case of this discussion - their upgrade.
That's not to say that other pilot's (and I think most fall into this category) don't look at the standards AS "minimums" AND try to achieve that higher level ("point in space") during their tenures but, remember - that's technically not required of them!
Personally I strive for that 100% ("point in space") BUT, keep in mind, "minimum standards" for the purposes of what a company needs (fly from point A to point B and not kill anyone in the process) pretty much fits the bill for their main requirement of a pilot - It may not be a perfect system BUT, for the most part, "minimum standards" works just fine!
So that said, what IS/SHOULD be the difference between a first officer and a Captain. Well, I remember an IP telling me many years ago that the difference between a first officer and a captain was NOT the “ability to fly” the plane (as we can all fly to the minimum standards) BUT rather the "experience" the Captain brings to the cockpit and their "decisions" subsequent on how to deal with the situation, problem etc. and that stems from their “experience”, or basically time in the plane!
We can teach a "monkey" how to fly an airplane BUT can we teach that monkey NOT to fly the airplane through a Level 5 T-storm - probably not! That comes from experience, perceptions, etc.
So does a seniority system support that "experience" required? Sure - you gain knowledge as a first officer while you build your time and "wait your turn" to get to take a shot at the left seat - It would seem that the most "unbiased" way to the opportunity for an upgrade IS to go with a seniority system - it means everyone HAS to "do their time" for whatever the industry requires (3 years, 5 years, 10+, etc.) and you can't "shortcut it." But remember, it also guarantees you a shot as well!
Besides, if we were to base on merit as well, you also run the additional risk of "friends" recommending, tagging friends to upgrade AND/OR worse, having "fast burners" get an opportunity to upgrade when really they just don’t have the raw "experience" or time in seat - It's not how accurately you fly as a Captain BUT how mentally accurate you fly in the left seat.
So, the seniority system takes that merit equation out, and then all that is required of you, technically, IS to fly the plane through the window (not the point in space) consistently and when the time comes, hopefully you’ve “learned” enough to be a good Captain and as ImEbee said, you get your shot and if you are unable to pass the ride, training, etc. then, guess what? Game over! The next one gets their shot!
I guarantee, people who want to abolish the seniority system for a “merit” based one will be the VERY FIRST in line to complain when they see someone with less “experience” get a shot before they do!
Anyway, on a side note, if you want to carry bags for an old lady, go for it, you probably should be doing that anyway whether or not you're going to "get anything for it" BUT, if you want to ignore her as she struggles down the jetway, so be it, that’s fine too, it's technically not your responsibility either - I will say Karma can be a Son of a gun, BUT you shouldn't need that, nor should it be required of you to get your day in the Left Seat!

Anyway, I've probably rambled on long enough (been out of the picture for a couple weeks!? Forum withdrawal) As always, plugging away (and carrying bags) from the right seat...

Cheers

 

On a side note,

Not sure if this should be here and whether or not this is on the forum somewhere but I found this email in my archives - definitely food for thought for those aspiring to be a "professional pilot."

I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life. This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired.

"Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied, realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.

"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.

"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.

"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line," the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing your body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."

"Gee, I think my health is OK," I nervously choked out.

The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before. "If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired,"

I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous.

He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles. "Each time, before we allow you near one of our multimillion dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed."

"When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs. "Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."

"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated. Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as possible."

"At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license; if your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."

"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."

"You will be well out of town most holidays, weekends, and family events - half our pilots are always on the job at any point in time.

Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover. Occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck. Of course, management will not be held to the same standards.

Oh, and one last thing - if we negotiate pay and work rule concessions from you in the in exchange for a better pension plan, we probably won't fund that pension plan agreement (unlike the management pension plan and golden parachutes) and will likely have yanked it away from you."

"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen.

I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car. I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program. !!

 

300 hrs? whew .I wonder why American carriers don,t jump on that band wagon? hey if it works for Intnl Carriers it schould work over here also
HAHAHHAHA some pax have no idea how many hours the crews have on the a/c they are flying .scary isnt?



I see the screw up fairy has visited us again.

 

Well since I stirred the hornets nest up I would like to counter with a couple things.

First. I value everyone's opinions and don't think that the system that I believe in is perfect, but then again, no system is. Thanks for everyone elses point of view from the pure commercial to the mil/commercial to the mil.

Second. I think that many are taking my statements to be absolutes, not the broad strokes that I intended. To take the "human condition" out is to simply state that with either system there is going to be some politicing involved.

Third. Why should someone have to "wait their turn" when they are ready to upgrade? If it is a training slot issue, then I understand, but if you are waiting just because your number isn't up yet, then I don't see the point. Money is the driving factor in all payscales that I have seen in the commercial business (airlines and such). I don't know how to solve that.

Fourth. To address the Pilot vs Officer debate, I don't agree that your flying career should be based on your ability to whip out a PowerPoint slide show better than any other officer. Flying upgrades should be based soley on that, FLYING! I have seen many a great pilot get hosed because they didn't do a great office job, and seen too many schmucks get upgraded because they kissed the right butt. That is a flaw in the military system.

Fifth. Thanks for making this such a great debate! I enjoy have a civilized conversation with people who don't just want to agree with everyone else.

Thanks airline guys for trying to educate this grunt, and thanks mil guys for sharing your opinions.....

But I still disagree