Pilot response to Washington Post Article
04-08-2008, 06:34 AM
#51
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
This guy (Pearlstein) was just announced as a winner of the Pulitzer Prize in the field of Economics. From the Washington Post:
Pearlstein won the commentary award for a variety of columns, many of them focused on his early warnings that mounting problems in subprime mortgages and other credit markets posed a serious threat to the nation's economy. He wrote Aug. 11: "This is a financial, economic and political time bomb that is likely to force families out of their homes; dump millions of houses and condos onto an already glutted market; and result in massive losses for mortgage lenders, hedge funds, banks, insurance companies and pension funds that hold securities backed by, or somehow tied to, these troubled mortgages."
Pearlstein won the commentary award for a variety of columns, many of them focused on his early warnings that mounting problems in subprime mortgages and other credit markets posed a serious threat to the nation's economy. He wrote Aug. 11: "This is a financial, economic and political time bomb that is likely to force families out of their homes; dump millions of houses and condos onto an already glutted market; and result in massive losses for mortgage lenders, hedge funds, banks, insurance companies and pension funds that hold securities backed by, or somehow tied to, these troubled mortgages."
04-09-2008, 02:25 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Freddy driver
Posts: 154
Flame away.....
The seniority system is crap. I'm in the military and I don't get to upgrade until I am deemed ready to do so. Favoritism is always going to play the part when dealing with humans, so let’s just say that it is always going to be a part of the process.
What would be so wrong with keeping a record of all flights that someone does while being only right seat qual'd, and then going to instructor, then evaluator? Why is that so hard to grasp? It took me just over a year in both aircraft that I have flown in the military to make that transition from right to left. Each flight that I did had a write-up. Those write-ups were reviewed by my training office and then by my Director of Operations, then by my Squadron Commander. It was up to the SQ/CC to decide if I was ready to upgrade, based on the input that was given to him. I have seen it plenty of times that people have been held back because they were not considered "ready" to upgrade. The system works. Just because I am senior, and getting retrained on a new aircraft, doesn't mean that I am more qualified to be a left seater any faster than the guy who has spent 5 years in that plane.
This system could easily be adapted to fit the airlines needs (keep flaming, I know you want to).
Now I know that the next argument is going to be how we get paid. The truth is I don't have an answer for that one.
The system is flawed and seniority is a root cause. I can't see that the military will trust me with an aircraft that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, let me command a mission that flies around the world, transit a combat zone, entrust me with the lives of a hundred people, several million dollars worth of equipment, and the airlines will not. (don't stop flaming now!).
If I was to enter the airline game now, it would take me anywhere from 5-9 years (ish) to get that left seat qual. That just seems backward to me. How is it that the government, who doesn't trust anyone to do anything, trusts me on a greater level than an airline?
Those that are ready get promoted based on skill and experience, period! How many times have you all sat in the right seat thinking to yourself that you could run this trip better than the guy in the left seat? But sadly you have to wait several more years until your number comes up. It's sad.
I know that I am completely going against the grain here, but that is okay. Real change only comes from those that are willing to think outside the box and not from those that want to drink the coolaid and follow the party line.
I hope I have not offended too many people, for this response was only intended to share my thoughts, not to anger those that love the seniority based system.
And begin the flaming
The seniority system is crap. I'm in the military and I don't get to upgrade until I am deemed ready to do so. Favoritism is always going to play the part when dealing with humans, so let’s just say that it is always going to be a part of the process.
What would be so wrong with keeping a record of all flights that someone does while being only right seat qual'd, and then going to instructor, then evaluator? Why is that so hard to grasp? It took me just over a year in both aircraft that I have flown in the military to make that transition from right to left. Each flight that I did had a write-up. Those write-ups were reviewed by my training office and then by my Director of Operations, then by my Squadron Commander. It was up to the SQ/CC to decide if I was ready to upgrade, based on the input that was given to him. I have seen it plenty of times that people have been held back because they were not considered "ready" to upgrade. The system works. Just because I am senior, and getting retrained on a new aircraft, doesn't mean that I am more qualified to be a left seater any faster than the guy who has spent 5 years in that plane.
This system could easily be adapted to fit the airlines needs (keep flaming, I know you want to).
Now I know that the next argument is going to be how we get paid. The truth is I don't have an answer for that one.The system is flawed and seniority is a root cause. I can't see that the military will trust me with an aircraft that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, let me command a mission that flies around the world, transit a combat zone, entrust me with the lives of a hundred people, several million dollars worth of equipment, and the airlines will not. (don't stop flaming now!).
If I was to enter the airline game now, it would take me anywhere from 5-9 years (ish) to get that left seat qual. That just seems backward to me. How is it that the government, who doesn't trust anyone to do anything, trusts me on a greater level than an airline?
Those that are ready get promoted based on skill and experience, period! How many times have you all sat in the right seat thinking to yourself that you could run this trip better than the guy in the left seat? But sadly you have to wait several more years until your number comes up. It's sad.
I know that I am completely going against the grain here, but that is okay. Real change only comes from those that are willing to think outside the box and not from those that want to drink the coolaid and follow the party line.
I hope I have not offended too many people, for this response was only intended to share my thoughts, not to anger those that love the seniority based system.
And begin the flaming
04-09-2008, 04:07 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Freddy driver
Posts: 154
04-09-2008, 04:27 AM
#57
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
The military is a totally different animal. Doesn't matter whether you're sitting right or left seat there, you get the same pay. In addition, your military performance evaluations are based largely upon your relationship with the front office and prior reputation. I'm not complaining, I did very well with that system when I was in. Like I told a newbie at my squadron, it's not enough to do a good job, you have to make people want you to succeed. If you can't be quiet, don't be new.
Problem is that in the civilian world, you would be much less likely to "rock the boat" at any level if you thought that it would delay your upgrade, or cost you dearly in going back to sitting first officer. So far, my civilian career has been far less political in nature, and I like it that way. Like the author of this ridiculous article points out, in his idealized system, one of the deciding factors would be "demonstrations of commitment to the company." That means vastly different things in terms of operating a for profit business vs. a government entity.
I used to think some of the same things when I was in, but you really don't have a clear picture of civilian operations until you've been out for a while. In reality, the same system exists in the military. You have to serve your time to be in the window for promotion, plain and simple. The same system exists at the airlines, and no matter how much someone on the outside looking in would like to bypass the time to upgrade, it's there for a reason.
Problem is that in the civilian world, you would be much less likely to "rock the boat" at any level if you thought that it would delay your upgrade, or cost you dearly in going back to sitting first officer. So far, my civilian career has been far less political in nature, and I like it that way. Like the author of this ridiculous article points out, in his idealized system, one of the deciding factors would be "demonstrations of commitment to the company." That means vastly different things in terms of operating a for profit business vs. a government entity.
I used to think some of the same things when I was in, but you really don't have a clear picture of civilian operations until you've been out for a while. In reality, the same system exists in the military. You have to serve your time to be in the window for promotion, plain and simple. The same system exists at the airlines, and no matter how much someone on the outside looking in would like to bypass the time to upgrade, it's there for a reason.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 04-09-2008 at 04:47 AM.
04-09-2008, 05:21 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Re-reading George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' and getting scared...
Posts: 276
And being prior military myself, I can't tell you how many times I've seen some "fast burner" who majored in butt-kissing move up the ladder, and he couldn't fly his way out of a wet paper bag. It's MUCH more political than a seniority system on the outside. Besides, if you would rather hang out in the right seat, you don't get as much of the hairy eyeball as to your "dedication" as you do in the military.
04-09-2008, 06:42 AM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Boeing
Posts: 89
Seniority system would be more equitable for all if the top few senior pilots stopped looking out for their own interest at the expense of junior pilots. Most of the concessions given by pilots at major airlines sacrificed junior pilots interest the most. Case in point, look at the first year pay for UAL, NWA pilots, pitiful compared to what they used to be before the concession.
The pay raise should not be % based, it should be a fixed dollar amount. ie, a % raise benefits the top few the most who already makes the top dollar. 20% of $200 is a $40 raise whereas for those making $60/hr, it's only a $12 raise. Instead, pay raise should be a fixed dollar amount, ie., $20/hr raise, $30/hr raise etc. for everyone at the airline. Or better yet a graduated scale of pay raise ie., those at the bottom gets the most amount of raise and the top gets less.
The pay raise should not be % based, it should be a fixed dollar amount. ie, a % raise benefits the top few the most who already makes the top dollar. 20% of $200 is a $40 raise whereas for those making $60/hr, it's only a $12 raise. Instead, pay raise should be a fixed dollar amount, ie., $20/hr raise, $30/hr raise etc. for everyone at the airline. Or better yet a graduated scale of pay raise ie., those at the bottom gets the most amount of raise and the top gets less.
There now may be no movement again for 5 + years. Without movement by retirements, financial incentive to leave (i.e. senior Delta guys like the one who wrote the article who took their lump sum) or growth (all but dead with a merger) this poverty trap of a career is not worth the hours you spent to get here.
This job is easy. Just stop telling everyone
. It is easy to do C level work and it requires skill and experience to do A work. Problem is, no one but the guy/gal sitting next to you knows if you are doing A work or C work. Another reason we have a hard time commanding any respect or $$. Also, It has never been easier to be an airline pilot. I know, United used to hire Private Pilots, but we are again there. You can get a job at any regional hiring with no degree and minimal experience. A Delta/United interview used to require amazing amounts of networking and experience. During this last hiring spurt they were calling anyone they could. Soon, I predict, it will be the same at the majors. Ab Initio will be the new buzzword like PFT was years back. More and more military guys won't be able to justify move to the airlines due to the severe cut in bennies and pay.
I think there is a short time left to save our jobs and we cannot expect guys with 15+ years at our companies to do it.
04-09-2008, 06:55 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
And being prior military myself, I can't tell you how many times I've seen some "fast burner" who majored in butt-kissing move up the ladder, and he couldn't fly his way out of a wet paper bag. It's MUCH more political than a seniority system on the outside. Besides, if you would rather hang out in the right seat, you don't get as much of the hairy eyeball as to your "dedication" as you do in the military.
If WAFP talked to any guys flying at "merit-based" companies (Citation Shares and VA were merit based, among others I believe), I'm sure he'd discover that management will hold that upgrade over your head and use it as leverage to push you into operationally questionable decisions, or obligate you to jump at their command. You're basically on probation for your whole career. No thanks.
Additionally, the unions (good or bad) will never allow it.
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