captjns

I am curious to know if the VP of Ops for NWA has been in contact with the FAA and applied for a waiver under FAR 121.405 for a reduction of programmed training hours for current and qualified pilots to replace those who walkout?

I wonder if NWA would even survive a walkout?




FAR 121.405(d)

(d) In granting initial and final approval of training programs or revisions, including reductions in programmed hours specified in this subpart, the Administrator considers the training aids, devices, methods, and procedures listed in the certificate holder's curriculum as set forth in §121.403 that increase the quality and effectiveness of the teaching-learning process.

FAR 121.405(g)

The Administrator may grant a deviation to certificate holders described in
§135.3 (b) and (c) of this chapter to allow reduced programmed hours of ground training required by §121.419 if it is found that a reduction is warranted based on the certificate holder's operations and the complexity of the make, model, and series of the aircraft used.

de727ups

"When an LCC operates the same equipment on the same routes and pays their employees 30% (in some cases) of what a competing legacy carrier pays you've got trouble"

I'm sure you know that Southwest, a union LCC, pays their 737 drivers better than 777 drivers at the legacies. I know you've been out of the biz a while so you might not have noticed that.

Pilot pay isn't really the issue. The legacies aren't losing money because of pilot pay.

ryane946

"The threat of mutually assured destruction kept Northwest Airlines and its pilots at the bargaining table on Thursday."


As someone who has watched this situation closely, I have not seen quite a good quote that has summed this situation up better. Whatever happens, this is gonna be interesting to watch.

And whatever you guys do about pay, please, PLEASE hold the line on not allowing NewCo.

BZNpilot248

AMEN to that! It drives me nuts that people remember what someone told them back in 2001 about pilots making 300K etc... It just isn't so these days.. If anyone had any idea about how little price the pilot labor is out of a ticket you'd realize it isn't "pilot labor costs" although many would like to think that. A Saab driver friend of mine was telling me the other day that someone who was making small talk with him could not BELIVE him that he didn't make 80K a year on his turbo prop as an FO! He walked off after he told the guy he'd be happy to be able to hold onto a quarter of that salary. This just shows how ignorant the public is about the issue. Belive it or not - SWA pilots are money makers these days (especially on comparable size equip) - not the DAL or NWA guys at this rate...

HSLD

Interesting point,

How many domestic FO's would work for $1 per seat and Captains $2 per seat - per leg?

Now add some numbers:

A typical 737 configuration of 130 seats, on a day with 5 legs (I think that's normal for domestic right?) on an 8 hour flight time day.

FO - ($130*5)/8 = $81.25/hr
Capt. - ($230*5)/8 = $162.50/hr

Of course this doesn't include health care & benefits cost to the airline so let's say we triple that $1-$2 bucks per seat per leg. So, if I'm an airline lets plan the cockpit labor cost at:

FO - $3 per seat per leg.
Capt. $6 per seat per leg.

Oops, add another dollar per seat per leg so the Union can "normalize" the pay rate steps and avoid a 2:1 pay ratio (which is fair) and you still have pilot costs around $12 per seat per leg.

I'm on a roll oversimplifying my examples today, but it's a stretch to say that pilot labor costs are a HUGE percentage of operating costs.

SkyHigh

RedeyeAV8r,

If you legacy guys keep beaching companies like you have been it will make it easier for the SkyHigh's of the world to have a wide assortment of LCC start ups to choose from. As you mentioned I have already pared down my expectations and am just hoping for a reasonable job. In case you haven't noticed so has most of the rest of the industry.

SkyHigh

RedeyeAV8r

Sky high..............Get real ......The Pilots aren't the ones Beaching companies and you know it.

Last time I checked, I didn't have any voicemails from MGT asking my recommendations during the last BOD meeting.

Any other Pilots out there been asked for Advice by your respective MGTS?

As you should know, pilots are tied to our respective companies, MGT of today is not! They screw up, they walk with several Mil under the Golden Chute.

You are actually incorrect, The Industry has paired down.................................the past tense.

50% percent pay cuts or more have occured and pensions have been wiped out.

MGT still wants more .........Pilots are saying Enough is enough.

As for those of us in the Cargo industry (currently we are very fortunate) to be working for companies making record, thats record profits!

1 Billion $$ in net profits for FedEx............................................. ..
Should we start pairing down? Never mind I already know your answer.

I forgot, weren't you were the one complaining about low wages in the industry thus the reason you got out.

Sky I would like to keep this up but please excuse me
I've got Fred Smith on Hold, he wants my input about a major strategy.


As if......................

SkyHigh

I am glad that your company is enjoying record profits. I am sure that you will hold the line throughout your career. You are very fortunate.

I also know that it is popular to lay the blame for the collapse of the legacy carriers at the door step of MGT. I wouldn't say that the pilots alone were beaching companies but the bloated costs of the entire work force. There has been a huge and growing imbalance in the industry for some time. How can you explain how UAL is supposed to continue with its former pay scales in the current business environment?

Why would management ask the pilots anything in regards to the operation of the business? The arrogance of pilots is staggering. Perhaps we should have a few baggage handlers on the BOD while we are at it.

I wouldn't say that I was complaining about the low wages. My position has been to bring to light to the younger generation that 40K isn't really a lot of money. They are the elephant in the room. I entered the industry with similar expectations as yourself. The latest generation would happily take your job for less than post man wages and go to work with a smile.

Take a look around. Pensions are a thing or the past. Unions are gutting our strongest industries and driving them overseas. Times have changed. I have been forced accept those changes and adapt to them the best I can. You however can enjoy your 1977 bubble of denial for a few years to come.

PS I have a friend who is a DC-10 Captain for Gemini and probably makes a third of your pay and benefits package. Something to think about.

SkyHigh

buckeyes95

I agree, NWA and DAL pilots should walk at the same time. That would turn some heads, and maybe bring some respect (and pay) back to the pilot profession. Labor has to stand together to halt the industry's dive to the bottom.

Hobbs

Im with the great Redeye on this one. To say that pilots should be happy to have any job at all is a load of crap. Does it really make sense to have someone who makes 40K a year flying a machine that costs 100 million dollars. NO. Oh yeah and this 100 million dollar machine is full of men women and children.
Get real pilots deserve every cent they make.

But ya know....the people who really deserve the money they make is the executives who don't give a rats ass what happens because they already have it made in the shade. Thats why they should give themselves bonuses when their company is cutting peoples wages in half. That makes sense to me.

Stick it to the man


-Hobbs