American turned Muslim pilot on terror watch list
08-22-2008 | 10:47 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 24
A few years ago we had a Muslim pilot here at UPS retire. He wrote a letter to our union newspapaer something to the effect that he was frustrated at the way he was being treated as a Muslim. It was an interesting letter. I'll try and dig it up.
08-22-2008 | 10:55 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 0
From: USAF
The guy at the end of the tape gets it right. Did this guy have due process before his liberty was taken away. I think this is what makes people so mad about these cases. I have no problem with what happens to these people as long as the government allows for due process.
There have been quite a few high profile people convicted of espionage over the years, so you never know. This guy could be one of them, but at least let him have his day court.
There have been quite a few high profile people convicted of espionage over the years, so you never know. This guy could be one of them, but at least let him have his day court.
Perhaps he has posted things on internet forums, etc, etc .. must be more to the story.
08-22-2008 | 11:36 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
If he was a terrorist, wouldn't he want to be more subtle than this? maybe say he is a Christian or something? ...wait a minute, maybe that's what they're doing! we should put all Christian pilots on the watch list (as well as all the Muslim ones just to be sure)
08-22-2008 | 01:26 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
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At least his conversion to Islam isn’t punishable by death the way converting to Christianity is in Yemen and other Muslim countries. I read last week that 7 additional Christian infidels just got arrested and are being “evaluated” by the Yemeni authorities. In the past such “evaluations” always managed to make those infidels change their mind and go back to their Islamic beliefs. I’m sure the fact those who stick to their new faith are facing a death sentence (good ‘ole decapitation squad) helps them to go back to their Islamic beliefs…
08-22-2008 | 01:49 PM
#15
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
im a Muslim 121 and air force reserve pilot. Im born and raised in the US and, like everyone else here, am grateful to be living in pretty much total freedom. I AM NOT OK WITH PROFILING. If i wanted my freedoms taken away, I'd go live in an oppressive Middle East, Asian, or former Soviet country. Dont take my freedoms away. If I get stopped at an airport for the color of my skin or my religion, I will comply but I will NEVER be ok with it.
For those of you who think we have lessons to learn from the Israelis, I see your point. Why dont you go to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem and see how they live? It sucks.
For those of you who think we have lessons to learn from the Israelis, I see your point. Why dont you go to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem and see how they live? It sucks.
08-22-2008 | 01:56 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Well, the government is probably wrong. The TSA isn't bright enough to light a candle.
But,,,, he isn't going anywhere in aviation with that beard.
Learguy
But,,,, he isn't going anywhere in aviation with that beard.
Learguy
08-22-2008 | 01:59 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
From: To the right of Mickey
Putting aside the specifics of the case, the general situation is pretty disturbing:
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
08-22-2008 | 06:27 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
From: A320
Putting aside the specifics of the case, the general situation is pretty disturbing:
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
08-22-2008 | 06:40 PM
#19
With The Resistance
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,191
Likes: 0
From: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Putting aside the specifics of the case, the general situation is pretty disturbing:
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
2a. Citizen has interacted with known terrorists, or in other ways that lead one or more agencies to deem him a significant security risk.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
1. Citizen puts significant time and resources towards a very specific, non-transferable skill-set for their chosen profession.
2. Citizen lands job for which they've trained.
2a. Citizen has interacted with known terrorists, or in other ways that lead one or more agencies to deem him a significant security risk.
3. Citizen is put on secret government list.
4. Employer informs citizen that unless they get off said secret list, they will be fired (and likely nigh-unhireable in their industry).
5. Citizen files grievance with appropriate government agency.
6. Agency refuses to confirm or deny citizen's position on the secret list, or provide any active avenues for appeal or a timeline for decision.
7. Citizen waits, their livelihood in the balance.
If the government is going to put a citizen on what is functionally a Do Not Employ list, there needs to be notification as well as a formal--and reasonably expedient--appeals process. While it's certainly not the government's job to guarantee employment, if the government is actively preventing someone from being employed, they need to be held accountable.
Your #6 is off base also, you can bet he has been contacted and offered the chance to 'fess up on a few little details.
I wish the world was perfect, but it isn't and it is still a very dangerous place.
08-22-2008 | 06:43 PM
#20
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 0
From: Out.
[FONT=Verdana]
Having said that I strongly support profiling and believe we should learn from the Israelis when it comes to airline safety. I know I’ll get some nasty posts for saying this but we need to acknowledge that the vast majority of today’s terrorists come from certain, primarily Muslim countries. I believe common sense should prevail and we should spend extra time researching people that might be a higher risk to our safety.
If I came from a country or a region that was infamous for being a major 'exporter' of terrorism I'd be very understanding if I found myself being screened more often than others. Many recent bombings in Spain and the UK have shown that some of the Western converts can be just as aggressive and vicious if not more so than the terrorist who actually came from the Muslim countries. Therefore I think it’s understandable why the TSA gets so nervous about some of those converts working in highly sensitive areas, such as airplane cockpits.
Having said that I strongly support profiling and believe we should learn from the Israelis when it comes to airline safety. I know I’ll get some nasty posts for saying this but we need to acknowledge that the vast majority of today’s terrorists come from certain, primarily Muslim countries. I believe common sense should prevail and we should spend extra time researching people that might be a higher risk to our safety.
If I came from a country or a region that was infamous for being a major 'exporter' of terrorism I'd be very understanding if I found myself being screened more often than others. Many recent bombings in Spain and the UK have shown that some of the Western converts can be just as aggressive and vicious if not more so than the terrorist who actually came from the Muslim countries. Therefore I think it’s understandable why the TSA gets so nervous about some of those converts working in highly sensitive areas, such as airplane cockpits.
Actually, if we are going to talk profiling, take a look at this:
A more specific profile of a serial killer has been presented by Apsche (1993) stating that most are white males in their twenties or thirties, who target strangers near their homes or places of work. "According to criminologist Eric Hickey, who has assembled the most extensive database on demography of serial murder states that, 88% of serial killers are male, 85% are Caucasian, and the average age when they claim their first victim is usually around 28.5. In terms of victim selection, 62% of the killers target strangers exclusively, and another 22% kill at least one stranger. (quote from Evaluating a psychological profile of a serial killer)
Consider that the next time you climb into the cockpit of your RJ.
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