Airline Pilot Central Forums - A new 747 start-up: Cargo 360

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Wow, I didn't read that part about the 2x$8000 checks..

So what's a guy do if he doesn't have the $16K laying arround in his checking account? Bounch the check?

Fog's right.. where does it stop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fogrunner (Post 96787)

I am not busting this guys balls. I am certainly not bragging on Gemini either. You at World drew a line in the sand on your contract. I wish we had done the same.
Having to pay for your drug, security and background checks is ludicrous, add in the fact they want you to pony up two checks for $8000. Where will this nonsense stop. I think you know as well as I do that bean counters will look at this and say "well if 360 can do this, why not World or Gemini"?
I don't think these are "fairly good benefits". Some of the folks on here seem to be tauting the management, funding and future. It certainly is not reflected in the recruitment package.

I interviewed with them, and was likewise impressed. So far, my cost to seek employment with them has been no more than it would have been at FedEx (I paid my way up to SEA and pay for my own hotel) and that seems to be fairly standard, industry wide, and I got to travel on my schedule, not theirs. Some companies fly you up on the company line. (CAL, AirTran, SWA come to mind) not all pay lodging when it is required, and it seems to me that the plane ride to the interview is really part of the interview. I know that there are lots of variations on this theme, but I don't see 360 as being all that far out of line with the "industry leaders".

If I have to cough up another few hundred bucks for the screens, so be it, I'll bet I get it back sooner or later, and I'll bet it is deductible with the IRS as well. And if I read the chart correctly the 360 pay is better than year 4/5 at Gemini and about equal to Atlas. I think if I do the math right, lifelong earnings for a newhire at Gemini would not exceed those of a 360 guy until somewhere in year 10 or 11, and if the 360 guy upgrades as predicted, the Gemini guy/gal may never catch up. As for $8000 checks, I think not, I was not asked to write a check, and no self respecting company would ask a new employee to actually write a check for his/her training or type rating, now would they? :rolleyes:

At 360 I was told that lodging is provided in training, last time I checked, at FDX in MEM, you need a crashpad, or a comfortable RV in south Memphis somewhere, but heck, you still get the IRS deduction.... 2-3 months on your own dime. Air Tran doesn't pay lodging expenses in training, hope you have a pad in ATL, but heck, you still get the deduction.... 2-3 months on your own dime. There is a trend here...

I won't know if I made the right decision until I'm 60...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dutch747 (Post 88235)

Yes I did. I'm just going to add to previous post and try not to repeat what Spongebob has said because everything he said was true.

The Good:

1. Crew ratio of 7 to 1 - This means you will flying instead of sitting in hotels. So if your like me and would rather work than play, you will definately work there.
2. They have signed a lease on two 744's that they will take delivery of early 2008.
3. The three acft they have right now are all averaging about 400 hours a month. This means they are flying their asses off and making money.
4. 2 747-200's and one 747-300's all came off the assembly line around the same time so they are the same (no differences training except the subtle differences of the -300)
5. $67.50 FO/FE pay, $110 Capt pay 60 hr guarantee (This is in the upper middle area of what other 747 ACMI outfits pay).
6. $2000 a month while in training (This is double what other ACMI outfits pay)
6. Blue Cross/Blue Shield Primera PPO with no clause for pre-existing conditions
7. A very productive and long term lucritive ACMI agreement with Korean Air.
8. 6 days paid annual vacation and 12 days paid sick leave a year. All paid back at the end of the year if not used.

The bad:

1. Two year training contract $16,000. They have you write two checks that they will not cash for $8,000 a peice unless you leave or get fired.
2. Seattle based so whenever you have to go to Seattle it's on your dime. This includes INDOC training which is one week.
3. No pay raises! They want to start a profit sharing program in 2008. Maybe it will happen, maybe not. No Guarantees.
4. Per diem: 1 dollar an hour while in training and $2 an hour while on the line. Only paid when you are not flying! If you have ever spent time in Incheon, you will soon discover this will hardly cover any expenses while there.
5. No bid lines! So you really don't know from month to month when your going to be working. I don't know what happens if you get extended into your days that you are suppose to be home other than I believe no extra pay.
6. Health Insurance starts in your third month and as Sponge said you have to get a Seattle address for this.... So does that mean all my Health Benefits info is mailed to the Seattle address? What of my PCP? Does it have to be in Washington also? I couldn't get answers on this or what my premium would be.
7. The 744's are a lease
8. No accruel of sick leave or Vacation
9. All there acft are Pratt powered "R" model engines (Fuel guzzling old engines, hard to start in high ambient conditions and hard to get parts for)

Thats all I can think of right now. They only fly Incheon to Ancorage (Tech Stop) than either LA, Chicago, New York, or Atlanta.

I think they are a solid company with good management (All of Company management have many years of aviation experience - most came from Delta so they are new to ACMI Cargo but from an employee point of view this won't matter much).

The two year training contract is the big stickler for me. This means they can abuse the **** out of me for two years. Based on the fact there are no guarantees of pay increases after the first or second year, my impression is they will probably abuse the employee for the first two years.

Everything written here is subject to change because they kept re-iterating to me that this is "Currently" what we are offering.

The interview was very easy, they did most of the talking, I just sat and listened. They gave me a couple of scenarios and asked what i would do... All common sense stuff.

I don't know if I got hired. They are waiting to interview everyone before they make any hiring decisions. I believe I did very well in the interview. We had a good rapport.

Quote:

At 360 I was told that lodging is provided in training, last time I checked, at FDX in MEM, you need a crashpad, or a comfortable RV in south Memphis somewhere, but heck, you still get the IRS deduction.... 2-3 months on your own dime. Air Tran doesn't pay lodging expenses in training, hope you have a pad in ATL, but heck, you still get the deduction.... 2-3 months on your own dime. There is a trend here

The bad seems pretty bad. You comparing 360 to FedEx.. WOW!!! I would take a crash pad at FedEx over 360 or Gemini. Then again you take your deduction. The discussion was centered on the ACMI sector. Not Air Tran, FedEx, UPS, etc.etc.

No pay raises, no vacation accural or sick leave. Seems a lot of the compensation is based on profit sharing. How can you compare payrates 5-6
years from now when they do not have any. Yes you should make more than Gemini a lot more. They are bigger a/c.

Seems as though you were told a lot. You may or may be not, new to the civilian world of aviation. Being told something in this industry means nothing, until you see it on the ramp and have last weeks pay check in your back pocket... Then again it seems as though some folks will do just about anything to fly a 74.

Just want to clear a few things up. The two check thing is false. The interviewer was joking with me and I thought he was serious...Kinda odd joke. Also, I "compare" to this and that just to help with the picture, nothing more.

Lastly, it's important to understand that even though Gemini, Omni, Atlas and all the other carriers that have been around years pay less or (With Atlas) maybe close to being "on par", I do not agree. The reason I don't agree is at Atlas if you stay out longer than scheduled, overide pay kicks in. Same at Gemini, Omni, etc. So I see it as a big reason not to go work at Cargo 360 if they can keep you out for 30 days every month and not compensate you for it.

For those of you who don't know, typical ovrd pay is around $200 to $300 a day everyday you stay out past schedule. Plus hours is above guarantee.

Also, paying for a Hotel yourself while in training (For Indoc of one week in Seattle) and paying $325 for drug test and background check is a scummy thing to do, this is offset by getting $2000 a month training pay. This is double what most others pay.

Just to clear up some misonceptions, There is no check required if hired, you get 24 "PFT" days a year as a SO/FO. "PFT" days are "personal free time" days to be used as you wish ex: sick time, vacation etc... they are worth 3 hrs of pay per day. I have gotten every day off I have requested and that includes Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year. Averaging 15 to 16 days a month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentherdunit (Post 96999)

Well, I really wish you guys the best.. and hope the honeymoon with mgmt lasts.. but in case not, remember.. there are options to help preserve your QAL and PAY and even raise them when the rising ebb of your company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bentherdunit (Post 96999)

I still haven't figured out how they hire. Are they hiring S/Os or F/O/s or both.

Depends on your background. I think right now if your hired without 747 experience you will be a SO, then maybe a year later an FO. The management being all ex-DAL, the system is setup a lot like it was back in the day when typical crew makeup was SO,FO, and Capt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dutch747 (Post 97124)

So basically they're taking -200/300's out on the road with pilot "FE's"? I would have thought they'd rather have PFE's all the time, not just for the first few hires... the experience they would bring alone is worth it. Maybe they just don't want to fork out the going rate for a PFE or about $55+/hr to start? I still think the lack of a union contract and over-ride (overtime) pay is troubling in a non-union operation with an Asian management/investment group.

I think, by hiring SO, they basically open the hiring to very low time guys who are going to jump at the chance to ride sideways in a 74 just so they can eye the right seat down the line.. sounds like a house of cards if you ask me. I can't see them doing any better than Focus or Tradewinds if this is any indication of where the seriousness of crewing is.

In the end, you will always get what you pay for.. and I say, if you're going to a non--union upstart.. be ready to pay, and pay, and pay...

They have a bunch of PFE's (the only Asians in the group), and I know for me (coming from the military) riding the panel would/is a great way to get introduced to the 121 world. And SO's start at $67/hr (same as FO's) so they aren't saving money that way.

And I was not eying the right seat but the left - with their expansion plans and upcoming turnover of the initial Captains (age) upgrade opportunities are going to come quick. Hence why they are being VERY selective in who they hire - as I was told in the interview "we are hiring the people who are being trusted to grow the company".

Cargo360 is run by Americans and is VERY well financed by a private equity group with a good plan (that they brief you on in the interview).

As I saw it: no need for a union unless the deal turns bad. Also, most of the management/leadership are former ALPA, and understand that.

HTH
Spongebob