A new 747 start-up: Cargo 360
 

Cargo 360, with headquarters in Seattle, is a new 747-200/300F start-up. Crews will be based in Seattle. We're still gathering info on them, but here's their site:

http://www.brz-inc.com/c360/main.php?type=main&usr=1

A pic of their 747-300SF:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1021749/M/

Two reasons to avoid:

- Asking for a 16,000 dollar two year training contract
- Brand new start up with no background of ops
- Asking for SSN on the inital account sign up of online app

The first point is enough to make me avoid them.

They will be in the black from day one due to their tie-in with Korean Air. Their CEO is former Korean Air CEO with contracts for frieght already nailed down. Flight Ops is run by a bunch of talented retired DAL guys

IMHO they will have problems with controlling their growth rate.

Interesting.............I'd pick this company over Virgin America any day.
Don't like the idea of giving your SSN right off the bat.

I don't care how wonderful or talanted the management is... even if they are retired DAL pilots... you don't ever... ever give your SSN to anyone... especially to a company that has not credit rating... a company that refuses to provide any answers via E-Mail, phone, or otherwise.

After all, the management of ENRON was very talanted too;)

Be sure that you do not apply.

Otay Butwheat.

Use Caution
 

Several of you have noted the application requires disclosing a SSN online.

I have a problem with this too, so I emailed the company last week and have yet to hear back.

While the the practice of submitting applications online is not uncommon, here is what I have trouble with:

• There is no privacy policy published on the Cargo 360 web site.
• No disclosure about how the submitted info is used.
• No disclosure that the applications is collected by http://www.corporateaces.com
• No info on the corporateaces.com site about pilot application services.
• No privacy policy on the corporateaces.com site
• No contact information on the corporateaces.com site other than an email address.
• The Security Certificate on corporateaces.com expires on 4/24/06.

I'd pass on this online application.

I could not obtain a retail credit investigation on the company from "Equifax", or "Retail Credit", let alone the management team.

Don't forget Identity theft either, or in the common denominator, sale of personal information... big business. These schuysters tried this game about a year and a half ago with the exact same scheme. The stated that any attempt to contact them would result in your application being excluded from employment review.

It doesn't matter the background of the management, and no matter how bad pilots may want to fly the whale... don't expose yourselves to potential problems.

the black helicopters are comming!!!!!!!

Wow, your right! And with your one anonymous post, I find your opinion extremely credible and am going to apply right now!!! :rolleyes:

What's your favorite koolaide flavor?

Cargo 360 is up and running; hired another class.

A/C #2 is a week away with #3 following in 30 days...

Strange
 

On the powerpoint for this company, I love how it lists the salary as "Market Competitive" And that means????? Kalita competitive or UPS competitive? The powerpoint seems like it was assembled in about 2 hours. Something seems fishy, while i'm skeptical, i'm also somewhat interested.

Don't forget to provide your social security, credit card, and bank account number if you request any additional information from Cagro 360.

Moron
 

After reading what you write, I have come to the opinion that either Cargo 360 turned you down flat in an interview or you are a conspiracy theory freak. You seem to really believe that these guys would buy, paint up and operate 3 747’s, in less than three months of getting their ticket, for a SSN fishing scam. On PPRUNE you have been slammed for this type of rabble rousing trash. I suggest you attempt to post something.....anything professional and you might get taken seriously.

P.S. To DJ Start pay: 110.00 hr for capt, 67.50 hr for FO and SO. 2.00 HR perdiem, Profit share starting in second year, 401K with 3% company match in second year. Real nice medical plan, dental etc.

Right back at ya, I hope that you can "walk the walk" of posting "...something...anything professional...".

I made the original post about using caution with Cargo 360's application process. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...66&postcount=8

As noted in the reference post, the online application is below industry standards in terms of privacy. If Cargo 360 is pursuing DoD contracts, they could also be in violation of Section 508 accessibility laws (which covers privacy). Without any contact info or a site security certificate it's prudent to stay away from the online app.

Now lets see:rolleyes: ... yeah I have been slammed by people on PPRune on this subject. But you know what Stick Monkey? I'm entitled to my opinions. I'm also entitled to express those opinions. I don't care if you don't like them... but... that's the way it is.

I was a member of an airline certification team which was certified in early 2000. Being familiar with new certification procedures in place, Myself along with a colleague from my airline were contacted by a head hunter offering us the privilege of applying for a position on 360’s certification team. We told him we would fax over our resumes for 360’s review. He said they would prefer if we used the internet application process that was in place. We were given the web site address for the application process. Reviewing their website, we thought it not a good idea since a statement on the site said, and I quote “any attempt to contact us (360) will result in disqualification from any further consideration for employment”. Did not impress us at all… and well obviously you know the rest of the story. We wound up at different carriers accomplishing the normal interview/application process.

I still feel strongly about, blindly providing personal data before becoming an educated consumer. People must consider the consequences before surrendering vital information which could cause irreputable damage to themselves if such information gets into the wrong hands. Hey do you remember what KIWI did to unsuspecing pilots in the '90s? Weren't the individuals in management from original Eastern Airlines? Oh wait there was another airline in FLL selling jobs at $25,000 a seat.

So what makes 360 above the rest? Because the management came from DAL? Big deal... not impressed. look at the leaders of ENRON and World Telecom.

All I am saying is that there are other opportunities out there beside Cargo 360, which for all I know may be the "be all end all" in airlines". Until they have a proven record I recommend protential pilots to look elsewhere until 360 changes their application and training bond process.

But I do wish 360 continued success in their endeavors, and I am sure they are very lucky to a dedicated employee such as you Stick Monkey.

SSN on apps
 

Whats the difference between entering your social security number on the Cargo 360 app and entering that same number on the online app to Continental?
Obviously Continental is established, but like stated earlier in this thread, its highly unlikely that these folks bought 3 747's, painted them, and began flying them in order to con you into some identity theft racket. :eek:

You answered the question with the statement of the lenght of existence of CAL and '360. True... I would think that no one would intentionally pull that kind of scam.

I don't mind the training bond, provided however it's between the employee and employer only and not a third party. I find it rather sleezy that employees are responsible for a bond to of which the training company is a third party, rather than the airline. This means if '360 folds, which of course I hope it does not, but there is always the chance that it can, and therefore the pilot is still on the hook for the cost of his or her training to the training organization.

It is equally sleezy to impose a fee for back ground checks which are about twice the customary charges made by the likes of Equifax, Retail Credit. Do you think thats fair?



Bottom line those desperate to fly a whale will acquiece to such conditions. What can I say.

I just checked - and the initial application window at the Cargo 360 site is the same for all practical purposes since I saw it last - at least now it is secure before it was not even that.

I take deep umbrage to collecting the SSN as a precursory step prior to even being able to post you qualifications in the system. On many other online applications sites you will enter your specific information (ssn) when deep inside the application process - not on page one! Additionally the ONLY reason that the SSN is required is to check your identity and do a background check. All that is usually done after accepting a job offer.

I talked to some people and have found out that Cargo 360 wants you to pay $250.00 for a drug screening test! Outrageous! Someone posted here that they want you to pay for a background check as well? Unbelievable.

It is my understanding that they do not pay per diem while you are on the aircraft because "all the flights are well catered".

I think that all this is cruel and unusual punishment. No one should have to endure this.

As do I, unfortunately the application process at many companies has become viewed as a profit tool. Buyer beware.

Its beyond cruel. For my dough its just plain sleezy. With the income enjoyed by cargo carriers, there is just no excuse to treat crewmembers in such a disgusting manner. But on the other hand there are those disillusioned fools that don't give a rat's a$$ how they are treated... as long as they are flying their dream machine.

The management comes from DAL? They must be stellar reputable individuals... yeah right... to treat their employees this way. I guess and hope that no one in management were pilots.

Probably is the real deal, but it would not be hard to throw up a web site, lease a 747 for a few months, paint it, and then watch all the apps come running with their SSNs. It is not rocket science to do that. And I think you would be suprised how little you could get a 747 for these days. I think I would at least follow the advice of HSLD, considering that he has seen every single online app of every airline listed on APC. Protect yourself and use a little caution.

Considering they have 3 747's in service now and are making runs from Inchon to Ancorage to Ohare, LA, and JFK, I'm thinkin it's probably not a scam. I understand the other concerns about the bond for training and rumor of the security investigation charge, but as for a ssn scam, there are easier ways to get socials. Anyway, thanks for the advice guys.

Not rumor... fact. Remember... if the company goes bust, you are still on the hook for the satisfaction of the repayment of the training bond to the training company and or financial instutution underwriting the training cost.

Not rumor... fact. Call me old fasnioned, but I think it's pretty sleezy for a company to make money off of potential employees... don't you?

^^^^^
 

^^^^^Yes, that is the sleezy scumbag way. There was another real bad scumbag carrier.... I think they flew 727's.... who's management team was all DAL? Anybody remember who it was?:confused:

I don't know... but a couple of guys just beat their chests how great '360 is but they just can't justify or defend their positions as why it's a great airline despite their sleezy practices and reqirements.

Well thats a positive! I hope it works! Don't mean to keep beeting them up for the BS, I really truly hope its a successful operation. Just wish they would loose the super ego.:p

Reminds me of an old used car salesman saying..

"There's an a$$ for every seat."

As long as there are saps who will pay for training, there will be.

SF

On this last ten day trip, I've been looking at their airplanes on the ramp @LAX,ANC,and ORD.
A couple of my neighbors work there and seem to be enjoying it. They are both retired pilots form major carriers.

I wonder if they got on before '360 required payment for the back ground check, drug testing, and direct personal training bond guaranty?

Don't know, I'll ask em this week, Heading home tonight for a week off after ten days of abuse.

Just to set the record striaght...

I did an interview with them back in Sept...just found out I was hired!

1. SSN on the electronic app is not unusual - Almost 90% of non-flying openings I've applied for require it. Easy way for HR to see if you can work in the US and do an initial child molestor check before they call you back.
2. Very professional company, great group of folks, solid business plan and the money (A LOT OF MONEY) behind them is there for the haul. Seems their biggest roadblock is going to be getting jets to expand.
3. Everything about the company (and interview process) is more "business" oriented than "airline" oriented. Minimal tech - it's assumed you know your stuff, focus seemed to be on your ability to work with the group there and move into the leadeship as the company grows.
4. Because of #2, and the fact their initial cadre is OLD, potential for fast upgrades. Merit based, as they have some PFE's (expats) who can't upgrade.
5. If your a military pilot, look at Cargo360. Everyone I met had been in/was retired from the military, and if you look at the employment brief on their website and from my interview with them, they seem to place a high emphasis on the dedication, international experience and trainability you've shown, as opposed to being able to find a FSS freq on a Jepp chart in 5 seconds. You'll be taught that. If you're a C-17 guy from McChord or a COD guy, this place is for you.
6. The bond - only comes into effect if you volutarily leave within two years. If they go under, you are off the hook. If you lose your medical, off the hook. It's only an agreement - no money is changed up front.
7. $325 for urine test and background check. Hmm. ($67.50/hr x 60 hrs (min)) - $325 & 747 Capt in 4 years or ($24 x 72) and RJ FO for 7??? Whatever.
8. Base is SEA, and you have to have a WA address for the benefits...otherwise they will fly you from the nearest major airport to meet the plane.

The above said, I'd love to work there. But, I've taken a non-flying job and will turn them down. Had they sent me (or given me an earlier "heads up" when asked) the offer a couple of weeks ago I would have jumped on it.

Overall, I was very impressed.

HTH
Spongebob

^^^^
 

Good post Square Pants! Nice to hear some factual information for a change instead of rant and raves about social secutrity numbers or training bonds. I do have a couple of questions for you... You said based in Seattle, but would fly you from the nearest airport to meet the plane... So does that mean for me living in Colorado I would just have to go to Denver and they would pay for my ticket from there? Or is Seattle the Gateway that I have to get to on my own and they would pay from there?
Last question is what did they say about pay while in training? Is it full pay or something like what some of the other 747 outfits do?
Thanks for any info.

Dutch,

Their "base" is Seattle, but they don't actually fly from there. As it was explained to me, they would fly you (in your case) from DEN to where ever your trip was starting to meet the jet, so JFK, ORD, ANC, Inchon, etc. etc. and the reverse when you ended. In my case, I live just outside LA so they had said most of my trips would start/stop with a jet @ LAX. Not a bad deal. Their schedule guys sounded S.H. - no reserve, and good about giving you good "off" blocks and minimizing your commute, which makes sense with the $ they are going to spend getting you to a jet.

Pay in training is $2000/mo; they don't cover lodging for indoc @ SEA (two weeks), but they do cover lodging during ground school and sims in Minneapolis. Pay (S/O or F/O) is $67.50/hr from the start of IOE onwards. 60hr guarantee with a target of 80hrs. The impression I got was not flying enough was not going to be an issue.

HTH
Spongebob

Thanks Spongebob
 

Not bad. Thanks for the insight. I called them yesterday for an interview. 2 weeks Indoc and they don't pay for your hotel! OMG! Do they at least pay per diem? And what of per diem?

Thanks again for the info.

Unless things have changed it is only one week in SEA then five weeks of training in MIA. The one week in SEA is on your dime for hotel. That is reasonable due to the fact that SEA is your crew base and they assume that you live there. Training pay is 2000 per month in training. True that the company will fly you from your home, read that as the nearest reasonable airport for cost reasons, to start your trip. You get a hotel room on the front and back side of each trip and a ticket home.

Basically, unless you live in the way out in the middle of no-where you do not have to worry about getting to and from work. Two 747-400's planned for early 08. Medical coverage is quite nice. Blue cross Premeria. After a year, you will get 401k with a 3% company match, and are eligable for profit share. 15% of profits are going to be shared with the employees.

Plans are to hire about 30 people in the next year.

The slide show says "appropriate military fixed wing time." I read that to say, "no military conversion necessary and we'll see." Anybody have a similar or totally different interpretation of that statement?