As far as the clearing smoke goes, even if Delta NWA and UAL survive in the short term I think most would agree that it will be sometime before they are in a position to hire anyone. I know that you guys love to cling to the past but things do change. Sure start ups suffer growing pains, but a few are still here and are growing; Airtran, Frontier, Jetblue ect. And a few of the Legacy carriers have transformed into close to LCC themselves. So if given the opportunity to be stuck in the right seat for an eternity at a stagnant old legacy or join a progressive new company that offers a much quicker upgrade in a brand new plane, No contest.

SkyHigh

 

Really, an airlines mission is to get the customer safely from point A to B and hopefully with their luggage. Most of the newer airlines comprise the top of the Conde Nast Traveller list of best airlines. So, if a legacy carrier doesnt offer better service or a cheaper ticket then where do they shine? It certainly isn't with nice friendly FA's. The few who do care about that level of quality are buying into Netjets.



SkyHigh

 

The legacy carriers offer a variety of destinations that LCC carriers don't come close to touching. Network carriers are not dead, they have been beaten down by a variety of events the past 5 years, including poor management decisions. Look at Europe. In spite of a rise in LCCs the major European carriers are making profits. The network carriers in the US have not learned how to capture the yield they need to make money. I'm not sure that management really wants to make money right now. It's a great opportunity for all mangements industry wide to bring down those arrogant, pesky pilots. Why else would these guys throw more capacity into the system to chase market share? Now that they are faced with the need to actually show a court that they have a viable business plan you now see fleets reduced in size until they can raise fares.

The RJ is the biggest waste of dollars that was ever put in the air. Sarcasti, you have pinned your career to the chance to fly a high cost jet in a low fare business. What happened at Fly i is what will happen at Comair or any other CRJ or EMB 145 operator. You will lose jets and routes because your jets cost too much to fly for the fares the network carrier is getting.

And why do you regional guys think your airlines are managed so much better than the network carriers you denigrate? It doesn't take a genius to make money on a cost plus basis, which is what fee for departure is. Mesa has taken a huge amount of money out of America West over the years because of fee for departure. We pay for the crappy service Mesa gives and they are guaranteed a profit on each segment they fly. It is subsidised service, a service that has been paid for in the past from mainline revenues, a service to expand the reach of the network, to provide a passenger with a greater range of choices and reasons to fly that particular carrier.

Now with the squeeze on cash at the network carriers each part of the company has to make financial sense in order to remain a part of the whole. The regional feed is making less and less sense at these fare levels so you will see more Rjs go bye bye unless fares come back up.

So the question then becomes why should a pilot group lock themselves into a long term concessionary contract which would prevent them from sharing in any future gains? Pilot groups have always stepped up to help out in the past, with the expectation that their sacrifices would be rewarded in the end. For the first time we are seeing management asking for concessions with no payback in better times. That is unacceptable and should be a line in the sand. I applaud Delta pilots for standing up and preventing the rape of their company.

 

What Legacy PAX carrier pays it's Pilots or FA's twice the pay of SWA or even JB or Airtran on comparable aircraft?

 

OK Son

You shot your mouth off,,,,,,,,,,,,,,here is some education
These pay rates were just taken from this forum

I used MAX longevity 12-16 years on comparable aircraft 737,A320, MD80, B717

Airline Aircraft CAPT/hr FO/hr
Airtran 737/717 153 79
JET B 320 139 76
CAL 737 144 98
Frontier 320 157 94UAL 320/737 129 88
DAL (currently) 737/md80 134 92
SWA 737 190 126
NWA 320 137 93
USAIr 320/737 125 95

According to you ALL the big boys are paying twice what the LCC's are paying. Before you make idiotic statements at least get your facts.

According to your thinking SWA will be out of business next week.
How is it Frontier can pay their crews more than DAL, USAIR UAL.

The legaciy carriers have HI Yield international markets vast international code share alliances to 140 or more countries world wide.
With globalization people will need to travel abroad all connecting many domestic US cities............................................ .........

My money is on the Big boys...........with a few exceptions they have always prevailed..............Other than SW and Americawest (Now mergerd into USAIR).......and name a start up that is still in business for more than 15 years? There numbers of the failed LCC start ups are too numerous to mention.............................

 

He is long on wind,but short on substance,and this isn't flame bait,just fact, I hope he comes around.

 

Pilots finalize strike stance
Union chief can call for walkout after April 17
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 04/06/06

The leader of Delta Air Lines' pilots union can call a strike anytime after April 17, the union's executive council decided Wednesday.

During a meeting of Air Line Pilots Association officials in Washington, council members granted Chairman Lee Moak authority to call a strike after that date and "and in a manner determined at his sole discretion," according to a message to all pilots.

The council's move was the last procedural step needed to allow Moak to call a strike, but it does not mean a walkout will happen.

Talks toward a settlement of the contract dispute continue, and a Delta spokesman said the airline remains committed to getting a deal.

Moak had said Tuesday that a walkout could begin immediately if an arbitration panel rules the airline can impose more than $300 million in annual concessions it says are critical to its Chapter 11 restructuring bid. The union is offering a smaller package, and the two sides submitted the matter to the panel last month.

The panel, which has urged the sides to work out a deal rather than wait for its ruling, is due to issue a decision by April 15. By making April 18 the first possible strike day, the union council might be adding a last-ditch negotiating buffer. Delta contends a strike would be illegal, and it might try to block one in court.

Earlier this week, the union said rank-and-file pilots voted overwhelmingly to give leaders strike authority — a common union move to gain leverage and pressure the company.

 

Wow,

We hit some turbulence with this thread.

To all the RJ drivers out there trying to make a living, my apologies if it appeared that I was dismissive of your contributions. That was not my intention. I would rather see your working conditions and pay go up and not down.

To all the aviators out there who have shown us your support, my heartfelt gratitude. Yes, it is our time at the forefront. We are resolved and we are prepared. Nothing worth having is free. I, along with many of my fellow pilots, was willing to fight for my country. I am willing to fight for my (our) profession.

Fairwinds.

Remlap

 

Well, if you count when it started (under a different name, same founder) Spirit Airlines was founded in 1980 as "Charter One".
If you don't count that, May 29th this year we will be close, 14 years as "Spirit Airlines".
And according to our D.O. next few years will be years of "growth" with new aircraft and destinations.?
Also, how long has ATA been around? It has been awhile hasn't it?

 

I agree that the current pay scales are much less than my statements about "twice the pay". However we all know that in the minds of the legacy guys they are all expecting to go back to the pay and benefits that they enjoyed five years ago someday. I don't think that will happen. Other statements that I made mentioned that a few of the legacy carriers were "beginning to resemble the LCC's". Therefore I think I appropriately addressed the current situation in previous postings. My position is that management at Delta is trying to make the pay cuts stick for the long haul and to get a little bit more if they can, like do away with the retirement plan.

As far as RJ's go. I am sure that they all would dry up and blow away if pilots at the bigger carriers would start to fly MD80's and 737's at RJ pilot wages. Scope clauses and pay traditions have drawn a line in the sand in regards to pay scales of airframe types. NWA is attempting to do away with that superstition and get their pilots to fly the 100 seat RJ at prevailing RJ wages. Next I think is that they will try and move a bigger jet like an MD80 into Newco and so on. Before long the RJ's will all be gone to South America and NWA pilots will be operating the same routes with MD80s at RJ wages and so will everyone else.

Some here feel that I am attacking aviation and I am not really. There will always be airplanes to fly and pilots willing to fly them. The change will be that pilots are not going to he as highly paid as in past generations. In the near future I think that prevailing wages for a domestic jet captain will be near 90K. International rates will be a bit higher. Employee funded health care and 401K but no generous retirement programs.


SkyHigh