CactusMike is right. Legacy carriers offer a greater network of destinations than smaller LCCs. That fact gives them a chance at the future but they still need to match the costs of LCC's before they close the gap.

SkyHigh

 

I think what we really need to be looking at is what labor costs per CASM at each airline. If the pilots and other labor at legacy carriers are paid less than Southwest, yet the labor portion of the CASM is higher, what does that tell us? Maybe there are to many high paid chiefs and not enough indians.

 

What if they are not paid less? What if SWA just works themselves into the ramp. Do you think then that legacy pilots should take a bigger pay cut or work more? In addition, if SWA is becoming the gold standard what if they face a pay cut someday, they are not bullet proof. What then? Soon they will be the top of the mountain of pay and benefits and no management staff wishes that title.

SkyHigh

 

We all need to see the future for what it is. What have we learned from the past? Every ten years, the industry takes a dump. This time around, the dump seems to last a little bit longer. Unfortunatley, the airlines will have to think outside the box to get the ball rolling again. Pilot pay and fuel are the biggest costs, but a pilot should not have to give something up unless upper management is willing to do so themselves.

 

And why is that? Pilots and management are not the same category. What relevance does their respective pay scales have to each other? Management survives on their perceived business ability and pilots preform a simple skill. Its like comparing a union carpenter to the team that manages the project. Not even close to the same skills set and job requirements.

So far this "dump" has lasted 5 years already and shows little signs of abating any time soon.

SKyHigh

 

Why don't you look then before you make ridiculous quotes on this forum..............What is it with you.

 

I did, smarta**, but their financial reports don't break it down into labor CASM. But if you were to look at total costs excluding fuel, you would see that Delta is still about 2 cents per seat mile more than Southwest. What is it with YOU?

 

If you re-read Mr Doom and Gloom's (SKYHIGH's ) original POST he made the statement that Legacy carriers are paying Pilots Twice what the LCC's are.................. He love to shoot from the Hip. When faed with a facutal reply he changes the subject.

I simply proved him wrong..........Don't you start

 

I agree with you. It's obvious that the legacy carriers ARE NOT paying twice what the LCC's are. In fact, many are paying less, even for larger equip. So why are their CASM's higher, excluding fuel, than Southwest's? I THINK it is because they have to many non-operational employees driving the labor costs per mile up.

 

They have higher costs for several reasons.....................

Most Legacy Carriers have their hubs in Large Metro Markets...............
LAX, SFO, ORD, ATL, DFW JFK on the domestic side coupled with the higher costs of LABOR and Realestate in International cities. The legacies generally have larger #'s of Gates and a Larger # of Landing fees respectively. JB has their Hub in JFK but I believe (don't quote me) their were given a very lucrative lease deal for Gate space there..........
However with the Bankruptcies, the legacies are renogotiating their gate leases and other costs at their main hubs.

Legacies have higher CASM's because they operate several different types of aircraft, which cause additional training and Mainteneace costs.................
Even that is changing, The legacies are beginning align their Fleets to limit the different types to only a few....................Continental is a good example. They are a Boeing Fleet, 737, 757,777.........They parked their DC9's, DC-10s and 727's and I believe most if not all their MD-80s.
American is slowly replacing the MD-80's with 737NG. American parked their DC-10s, MD-11 and is finishing up with their A-300's. Same with NWA losing their DC-9s and Dc-10s.

The Old USAir, for example, at one time had 11 different aircraft. Very inefficient.
Airbus has helped them with the 319, 320, 321..........different size aircraft for different markets yet they are the same "TYPE Rating" for pilots and the same for Maintenance. They Still have A-330's, 767's 757's 737's and the 319-321 with the A350 on order.

American is slowly replacing the MD-80's with 737NG. American parked their DC-10s, MD-11 and is finishing up with their A-300's.

Legacies have higher costs because they offer additional products.............
First and Business classes for the in Demand Business traveler. They have Business lounge facilities.

The funny thing is when you break down the cost by specific Aircraft (which they genrally don't do) instead including all fleet types the legacies are pretty close to the LCC's when you compare A-320s for example.

It has been said before...........Once this Delta battle is over, watch and see what happens. The BIG boys will be on PAR if not slightly less than many LCC's. The water level will stablize and things will get better. (barring another international catastophe or major Oil shock)