Jetcap37

We had... trying their luck elsewhere now.

Phantom Flyer

Carl:

As to your first point, just look what happened when Glen Tilton was delayed because of a late arriving crew and a mechanical issue for his flight to Chicago a couple of weeks ago. As CEO, he decided that the Captain was not going to delay him and the inference was that it was "politically" motivated because of Tilton's position. As a result the Captain was removed from flight status, initially without pay, and placed on administrative leave. In this case, the Captain appears to have been correct and followed company SOP and the FAR's. The jury is still out (figuratively) and it will be interesting to see what happens.

I'm well aware of "Captain's Authority" as defined by the FAR's having been "up the chain of command" all the way to the FAA Administrators office as part of a group in my previous life. You're correct in that with the law on your side and flying by company SOP's and the FAR's there isn't a concern...or shouldn't be. In most cases, this isn't an issue but the recent pressure being exerted on crew members is troublesome.

After having been one of the thousands of victims of the errosion of our lifestyle, it seems that senior management will press on to reduce the role of flight crewmwmbers in every aspect of operations, including Captain's Authority.

With all due respect, I guess we agree to disagree on the potential effect that the UAL va ALPA decision will have. As I said in the first posting, I hope that I'm wrong.

As for me personally, I have no fears Mate. I'm out of that mess.

FliFast

Lack of 121 Captain Experience or Lack of Authority.

It has been my observation, that no dispatcher has come across with sole authority over any flight I've ever flown.

Basically, in any 121 flight, it is a handshake agreement to have a flight released. Part 121 ops are not military ops whereas the aircraft commander dictates what goes on and Base ops says yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

A dispatcher is bound by the FARs to give input into all flights he/she releases. If a Capt elects not to work with the dispatcher pro-actively, but chooses to pick up the phone and yell at the dispatcher after the release is made then IMHO it's shows a lack of experience in how the process works.

Also, IMHO, one of the adverse affects of deregulation has been the erosion of Captain's authority. Economic forces have been given more weight and safety factors, although still important; have been trimmed to a bare minimun in order to make the operation as efficient as possible. In turn, this has stripped the Capt's absolute authority down to something that can be best described as a CYA process, or an attempt to avoid being the scapegoat. Case in point, at the last 4 passenger airlines I've worked at the gate agent owns the airplane while parked at the gate, because the gate agent can make economic deccisions such as detriminations on letting passengers get on, re-booking them, moving them up to first class etc. My argument is, if the gate agent owns the airplane while at the gate, when the HAZMAT in the front belly catches fire, I'm going to get myself off the airplane and the gate agent can direct the evacuation.

However, with experience of how the FARs are written, company policy, and diplomacy I've witnessed Capts. finesse the system to operate the flight the way they want it. Re-phrased, Capt's absolute authority allows a Capt to operate a flight the way they want to. Finessing the system by knowing (experience) how the system works allows for the same outcome.

Boiled down to one sentence...having experience of who all the players are, what their roles are, and what the rules are allows a Capt just as much opportunity for authority as the proverbial yeller or screamer.

FF

newKnow

I'm not sure if I am reading the article correctly, but if I am and the defendant is United ALPA, I think their position is the problem. Because the Captains authority comes from the FAR's & FOM's in conjunction with the Federal Government thru the FAA. Support from the company and the Union are just nice things to have. If you get fired for exercising your legal right that opens up a lot of other possibilities. But back to the union.

If this is their quote....


.... then THEY are the ones that have the wrong attitude. THEY are the ones that are supposed to have our backs no matter what the company or some judge says. ESPECIALLY if it is safety related.

I'll leave it at that for now because I'm not sure if it is UAL's ALPA that is issuing that statement. Can anyone confirm where the statemet came from and what the broad implication of the e-mail message was?

New K Now (For United Pilots)

757upspilot

Nope, still got them at UPS.

757upspilot

My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority.

Phantom Flyer

The quote is verbatim from an e-note that was authored by the four defendants in the lawsuit and was sent to all United pilots. If you would like references, pls send a PM and I'll be glad to provide all of the source data.

To 757upspilot; I think you understand the issue very clearly and thanks for your posts. We've been under attack for some time and perhaps this is the last bastion. At least you know who the enemy is.

G'Day Mates....and watch your six !

newKnow

Thanks Phantom,

But, if it's just a letter from the four defendant I'm ok. I thought it was the union cutting the pilots loose. My mistake.

iaflyer

Hear hear!

When I was Captain, I made decisions that were unpopular back at the home office. Shoot, I was so unpopular with MX control (because I wouldn't fly broken planes) that one mechanic on the plane even said, "hey, you're not as bad as MX control said!" .

However, I never once was questioned or called into the office. Why? Because I had listened to the situation, researched the problem using the manuals we have carry (MEL, FOM, Aircraft manual) and made an educated decision.

"Exercising Captain's Authority" is about being rational and making what might be an unpopular decision, but is the correct one.

FliFast

Nice remarks that further enforce my position. Your tone is probably the same way you talk to dispatchers, schedulers, and First Officers and then you wonder why no one wants to work with you.

As a First Officer, I am just as accountable to the company and FAA for my performance, as is the dispatcher, as are you. I think you revealed what the problem is...you maintain that the only person that has input is yourself and thus others aren't worth listening to. I think if you re-read my posting, you'll see that Capt's who have experience know there is a way to finesse the system with better results, as opposed to the yellers and screamers.

As you contend, you have "an accurate view of how the company treats it's Capt's". Please tell me that you aren't one of the few Capt's that think's out of 427,000 employees that the company knows you and is out to get you personally. Usually those Capt's with this perspective are those that are bent at "sticking it to the man", which usually backfires and cost him and his crew pay, missing their jumpseats home or leads to other adverse affects to his crew. That doesn't show experience, that shows selfishness and unprofessionalism.

Finally, as a former 757 passenger Capt and an 747 ACMI Capt flying Worldwide with ZERO support, you can spare me the lecture. The only reason you are the one in a "seat with accountability to the company" is because you were hired before me, not necessarily based on your experience vis-a-vis mine and certaintly not because of your attitude.

With the support that UPS provides to us, this is a cake walk compared to flying for the passenger airlines or ACMIs. You can trumpet your horn about how much experience you have and how no one, but you knows how to be a Capt, but remember the FAA suggested to UPS to hire applicants like myself et. al., into the widebodies flying Int'l out of ANC for a reason.

FF