Captain's Authority
11-30-2008, 09:04 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
Originally Posted by FliFast
Nice remarks that further enforce my position. Your tone is probably the same way you talk to dispatchers, schedulers, and First Officers and then you wonder why no one wants to work with you.
As a First Officer, I am just as accountible to the company for my performance, as is the dispatcher, as are you. I think you revealed what the problem is...you maintain that the only person that has input is yourself and thus others aren't worth listening to. I think if you re-read my posting, you'll see that Capt's who have experience know there is a way to finesse the system with better results, as opposed to the yellers and screamers.
Finally, as a former 757 passenger Capt and an 747 ACMI Capt flying Worldwide with ZERO support, you can spare me the lecture. The only reason you are the one in a "seat with accountability to the company" is because you were hired before me, not necessarily based on your experience vis-a-vis mine and certaintly not because of your attitude.
With the support that UPS provides to us, this is a cake walk compared to flying for the passenger airlines or ACMIs. You can trumpet your horn about how much experience you have and how no one, but you knows how to be a Capt, but remember the FAA suggested to UPS to hire applicants like myself et. al., into the widebodies flying Int'l out of ANC for a reason.
FF
As a First Officer, I am just as accountible to the company for my performance, as is the dispatcher, as are you. I think you revealed what the problem is...you maintain that the only person that has input is yourself and thus others aren't worth listening to. I think if you re-read my posting, you'll see that Capt's who have experience know there is a way to finesse the system with better results, as opposed to the yellers and screamers.
Finally, as a former 757 passenger Capt and an 747 ACMI Capt flying Worldwide with ZERO support, you can spare me the lecture. The only reason you are the one in a "seat with accountability to the company" is because you were hired before me, not necessarily based on your experience vis-a-vis mine and certaintly not because of your attitude.
With the support that UPS provides to us, this is a cake walk compared to flying for the passenger airlines or ACMIs. You can trumpet your horn about how much experience you have and how no one, but you knows how to be a Capt, but remember the FAA suggested to UPS to hire applicants like myself et. al., into the widebodies flying Int'l out of ANC for a reason.
FF
Having to finesse the system is the problem , the Captain shouldn't have to do this. I have never yelled at anyone.
Actually, before UPS I flew worldwide with very little to no support and did just fine.
There are lots of Captains here who do a great job and did so before you where hired as a First Officer.
You where hired as a First Officer because the FAA didn't want UPS putting a bunch of new hires from the regionals in the cockpit , the IPA agreed and the UPS took the course of least resistance.
UPS had pilots flying world wide before you came along , we know how to do it. You got the job in ANC because no one else on the property really wanted it although we had more than enough that could do the job.
Don't pat yourself on the back.
11-30-2008, 09:36 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Originally Posted by 757upspilot
Actually I work very well with the dispatchers who acknowledge joint authority, I rarely speak with schedulers because its not necessary, I routinely fly with the same FO's who could bid to fly with someone else if they made the choice to ( By the way these guys passed on the job you got because they didn't want it not because they couldn't do it).
Having to finesse the system is the problem , the Captain shouldn't have to do this. I have never yelled at anyone.
Actually, before UPS I flew worldwide with very little to no support and did just fine.
There are lots of Captains here who do a great job and did so before you where hired as a First Officer.
You where hired as a First Officer because the FAA didn't want UPS putting a bunch of new hires from the regionals in the cockpit , the IPA agreed and the UPS took the course of least resistance.
UPS had pilots flying world wide before you came along , we know how to do it. You got the job in ANC because no one else on the property really wanted it although we had more than enough that could do the job.
Don't pat yourself on the back.
Having to finesse the system is the problem , the Captain shouldn't have to do this. I have never yelled at anyone.
Actually, before UPS I flew worldwide with very little to no support and did just fine.
There are lots of Captains here who do a great job and did so before you where hired as a First Officer.
You where hired as a First Officer because the FAA didn't want UPS putting a bunch of new hires from the regionals in the cockpit , the IPA agreed and the UPS took the course of least resistance.
UPS had pilots flying world wide before you came along , we know how to do it. You got the job in ANC because no one else on the property really wanted it although we had more than enough that could do the job.
Don't pat yourself on the back.
THE FAA POI did advise UPS to hire experienced pilots with overwater time (if you look at the application it is in print) because they gave UPS a choice, hire experience or open yourself up to increased ramp and line checks based on the fact that it was the junior upgrade base. I'm just the messenger, but I guess your opinion contradicts the FAA's advice to UPS.
Why would UPS hire "just regional pilots", when they have over 10,000 applicants from all walks of aviation. I know you really don't believe that either.
If you really work "very well" with our dispatchers, then stop ragging on them. If you can provide a factual instance of any dispatcher saying he/she was the sole authority over a flight you operate(d), please do so. Maybe the Flt Number, initials, anything to prove your claim.
Our dispatchers actually do a very solid job here.
The only pat on the back, I'll take is working at UPS. After working at 6 other airlines, arguably this is one of the easiest and better companies to work for. I'm sorry you feel that dispatchers and the company are out to get you. It's just my opinion, that I've never witnessed it here and from my dealings with Capts/Dispatchers I find it a little far-fetched that a dispatcher would say he is the sole authority of a flight, and I've decided to call you on it.
FF
11-30-2008, 10:04 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
Originally Posted by FliFast
Not entirely true, even new hires that lived in ANC were not allowed to bid ANC based on background. Put another way, the company was willing to give new hires move packages to move to ANC and tell someone that lived there he was assigned to Louisville. Doesn't seem like the path of least resistance to me.
THE FAA POI did advise UPS to hire experienced pilots with overwater time (if you look at the application it is in print) because they gave UPS a choice, hire experience or open yourself up to increased ramp and line checks based on the fact that it was the junior upgrade base. I'm just the messenger, but I guess your opinion contradicts the FAA's advice to UPS.
Why would UPS hire "just regional pilots", when they have over 10,000 applicants from all walks of aviation. I know you really don't believe that either.
If you really work "very well" with our dispatchers, then stop ragging on them. If you can provide a factual instance of any dispatcher saying he/she was the sole authority over a flight you operate(d), please do so. Maybe the Flt Number, initials, anything to prove your claim.
Our dispatchers actually do a very solid job here.
The only pat on the back, I'll take is working at UPS. After working at 6 other airlines, arguably this is one of the easiest and better companies to work for. I'm sorry you feel that dispatchers and the company are out to get you. It's just my opinion, that I've never witnessed it here and from my dealings with Capts/Dispatchers I find it a little far-fetched that a dispatcher would say he is the sole authority of a flight, and I've decided to call you on it.
FF
THE FAA POI did advise UPS to hire experienced pilots with overwater time (if you look at the application it is in print) because they gave UPS a choice, hire experience or open yourself up to increased ramp and line checks based on the fact that it was the junior upgrade base. I'm just the messenger, but I guess your opinion contradicts the FAA's advice to UPS.
Why would UPS hire "just regional pilots", when they have over 10,000 applicants from all walks of aviation. I know you really don't believe that either.
If you really work "very well" with our dispatchers, then stop ragging on them. If you can provide a factual instance of any dispatcher saying he/she was the sole authority over a flight you operate(d), please do so. Maybe the Flt Number, initials, anything to prove your claim.
Our dispatchers actually do a very solid job here.
The only pat on the back, I'll take is working at UPS. After working at 6 other airlines, arguably this is one of the easiest and better companies to work for. I'm sorry you feel that dispatchers and the company are out to get you. It's just my opinion, that I've never witnessed it here and from my dealings with Capts/Dispatchers I find it a little far-fetched that a dispatcher would say he is the sole authority of a flight, and I've decided to call you on it.
FF
Its in print on the application , again after it became apparent that very few where going to bid it. If the domicile had stayed in SDF not a problem, the airplanes had been flying international for a long time.
I believe that UPS would have hired pilots from the regionals for those positions.
You can call anything you want. First how about a name, like yours.
11-30-2008, 10:59 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
757pilot - I think Flifast had some good points (and so did you in your earlier posts) however you sort of erected an 'invisible barrier' in the cockpit with this reply:
"...My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority..."
When I was in new hire training I ran into a former USairways captain who was being trained on the panel. He had been an international captain at USair for 20+ years and resigned from his old company as opposed to being furloughed. My point is that many FOs here at UPS have tons of captain experience from previous airlines (I'm not implying that I am one of them).
It would be better if you could be specific in your criticism of UPS dispatchers and our procedures rather than emphasizing your rank. Your observations are probably very accurate and if so we could all learn from those who'd been there before...
Just my 1/4 ˘
"...My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority..."
When I was in new hire training I ran into a former USairways captain who was being trained on the panel. He had been an international captain at USair for 20+ years and resigned from his old company as opposed to being furloughed. My point is that many FOs here at UPS have tons of captain experience from previous airlines (I'm not implying that I am one of them).
It would be better if you could be specific in your criticism of UPS dispatchers and our procedures rather than emphasizing your rank. Your observations are probably very accurate and if so we could all learn from those who'd been there before...
Just my 1/4 ˘
11-30-2008, 11:53 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
757pilot - I think Flifast had some good points (and so did you in your earlier posts) however you sort of erected an 'invisible barrier' in the cockpit with this reply:
"...My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority..."
When I was in new hire training I ran into a former USairways captain who was being trained on the panel. He had been an international captain at USair for 20+ years and resigned from his old company as opposed to being furloughed. My point is that many FOs here at UPS have tons of captain experience from previous airlines (I'm not implying that I am one of them).
It would be better if you could be specific in your criticism of UPS dispatchers and our procedures rather than emphasizing your rank. Your observations are probably very accurate and if so we could all learn from those who'd been there before...
Just my 1/4 ˘
"...My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority..."
When I was in new hire training I ran into a former USairways captain who was being trained on the panel. He had been an international captain at USair for 20+ years and resigned from his old company as opposed to being furloughed. My point is that many FOs here at UPS have tons of captain experience from previous airlines (I'm not implying that I am one of them).
It would be better if you could be specific in your criticism of UPS dispatchers and our procedures rather than emphasizing your rank. Your observations are probably very accurate and if so we could all learn from those who'd been there before...
Just my 1/4 ˘
12-01-2008, 02:36 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by slowplay
...A certain number of United pilots have gotten our whole association crossways with the law again, and put us all at risk. Maybe if our profession did a better job of policing itself, and not trying to hide industrial action behind the mantle of "authority", we wouldn't see our Union being held accountable for those types of actions...
12-02-2008, 06:40 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
757,
We can agree to disagree all day until the wings fall off this. All I asked was do you a specific example of a dispatcher that told you they are the sole authority of one of your flights. Your lack of specifics shows that your posting was rhetorical, rather than factual.
You may think that I will have this great religious event when and if I ever upgrade at UPS. No offense, but I doubt it seriously. After flying as a former 747 Capt and 757 Capt (just like you), the only thing that will change will be which rest break and paycheck I get. After 6 airlines prior to this, this is the easiest place to work, with the most support. How many airlines have you worked at before here, please don't tell me, this is your first.
Do you really think at UPS they pressure you as a Capt to fly broken airplanes like they do at some of the scum bag outfits that don't have any money to fix them. At least UPS has the money to maintain their stuff. You said you flew worldwide, was that with a scum bag outfit like the last two that I was Capt at.
Maybe this was the case in 1988, when I presume you were hired, but I haven't witnessed it in the time I've spent here. And really, if you have all this experience with UPS, how do you know what it's like to work at American, Delta, United, TWA, USAir. After working at American/TWA and the regional for USAir, I can tell you examples of Capt's being fired for not taking broken planes and for not violating FARs and the contract. Our MEC Chariman was one of them at Allegheny.
You can question my experience until doomesday, its all listed in my APC profile, type ratings, planes, etc. However, it still doesn't support your paranoid claim that UPS dispatchers, gateway individuals, ACPs are out to get you or that they are the sole authority over your flight. I have never witnessed this at UPS. I've actually witnessed quite the opposite. The other day in HKG Flt 61, the Capt asked for more fuel, and the gateway ordered more fuel and the dispatcher sent an ARTR for the incresed fuel burn and planned weights...factual event.
At the ACMI, if I ordered more fuel it would have taken at least 3 hours. We didn't have our own employees working the ground staff it was a handler, that really didnt give a poop, we didnt have satcom, ACARS, CPDLC, or an office where we could get our own paperwork, we would have to go to another airline and borrow their SITA address to get our paperwork, and it never came out in the clean form we get it at UPS, it was always had pages that went on past the page break so the info was all over the place. Do you think our paperwork was right ? Usually not, it was not uncommon to be on Amendment 5 or 6 before we even took off.
Do you think our flights plans ever made it to flow control in Brussels. Usually not.
When UPS started flying into Almaty a year and half ago ACPs called new hires and FDX ACPs in to help them plan it, because a handful of new hires used to fly thru Almaty, Biskek, Tashkent, and Urumqi before. With all the experience in SDF, why would UPS waste their time talking to us inexperienced new hires about ops into these cities ?
We had flight followers, not rated dispatchers, who were Embry Riddle interns as our worldwide dispatchers. At UPS the dispatchers have certificates and are accountable to the FAA. Are you really sure being a Capt at UPS is harder than it was at any ACMI...puhhleease. Untill you see how the poor live, don't tell them what's it's like to be poor.
I'll never say I've seen it all, but here at UPS this is a cake walk, and our dispatchers and the support we get in comparison to other places makes it work just fine.
I gotta ask, are you really that unhappy working for UPS and think this is a crummy outfit ? I find that hard to believe since many of the very experienced here have decided to fly past age 60 instead of leaving so they must think this is a good gig too.
I'm very lucky and very thankful I'm not working at some of the other places, and if I left today there would be 10,000 applicants that would happily step into my spot.
I've said my peace...this is a good gig. Your mileage may vary.
Over and out, I'll go back to my igloo.
FF
We can agree to disagree all day until the wings fall off this. All I asked was do you a specific example of a dispatcher that told you they are the sole authority of one of your flights. Your lack of specifics shows that your posting was rhetorical, rather than factual.
You may think that I will have this great religious event when and if I ever upgrade at UPS. No offense, but I doubt it seriously. After flying as a former 747 Capt and 757 Capt (just like you), the only thing that will change will be which rest break and paycheck I get. After 6 airlines prior to this, this is the easiest place to work, with the most support. How many airlines have you worked at before here, please don't tell me, this is your first.
Do you really think at UPS they pressure you as a Capt to fly broken airplanes like they do at some of the scum bag outfits that don't have any money to fix them. At least UPS has the money to maintain their stuff. You said you flew worldwide, was that with a scum bag outfit like the last two that I was Capt at.
Maybe this was the case in 1988, when I presume you were hired, but I haven't witnessed it in the time I've spent here. And really, if you have all this experience with UPS, how do you know what it's like to work at American, Delta, United, TWA, USAir. After working at American/TWA and the regional for USAir, I can tell you examples of Capt's being fired for not taking broken planes and for not violating FARs and the contract. Our MEC Chariman was one of them at Allegheny.
You can question my experience until doomesday, its all listed in my APC profile, type ratings, planes, etc. However, it still doesn't support your paranoid claim that UPS dispatchers, gateway individuals, ACPs are out to get you or that they are the sole authority over your flight. I have never witnessed this at UPS. I've actually witnessed quite the opposite. The other day in HKG Flt 61, the Capt asked for more fuel, and the gateway ordered more fuel and the dispatcher sent an ARTR for the incresed fuel burn and planned weights...factual event.
At the ACMI, if I ordered more fuel it would have taken at least 3 hours. We didn't have our own employees working the ground staff it was a handler, that really didnt give a poop, we didnt have satcom, ACARS, CPDLC, or an office where we could get our own paperwork, we would have to go to another airline and borrow their SITA address to get our paperwork, and it never came out in the clean form we get it at UPS, it was always had pages that went on past the page break so the info was all over the place. Do you think our paperwork was right ? Usually not, it was not uncommon to be on Amendment 5 or 6 before we even took off.
Do you think our flights plans ever made it to flow control in Brussels. Usually not.
When UPS started flying into Almaty a year and half ago ACPs called new hires and FDX ACPs in to help them plan it, because a handful of new hires used to fly thru Almaty, Biskek, Tashkent, and Urumqi before. With all the experience in SDF, why would UPS waste their time talking to us inexperienced new hires about ops into these cities ?
We had flight followers, not rated dispatchers, who were Embry Riddle interns as our worldwide dispatchers. At UPS the dispatchers have certificates and are accountable to the FAA. Are you really sure being a Capt at UPS is harder than it was at any ACMI...puhhleease. Untill you see how the poor live, don't tell them what's it's like to be poor.
I'll never say I've seen it all, but here at UPS this is a cake walk, and our dispatchers and the support we get in comparison to other places makes it work just fine.
I gotta ask, are you really that unhappy working for UPS and think this is a crummy outfit ? I find that hard to believe since many of the very experienced here have decided to fly past age 60 instead of leaving so they must think this is a good gig too.
I'm very lucky and very thankful I'm not working at some of the other places, and if I left today there would be 10,000 applicants that would happily step into my spot.
I've said my peace...this is a good gig. Your mileage may vary.
Over and out, I'll go back to my igloo.
FF
Last edited by FliFast; 12-02-2008 at 08:29 PM.
12-03-2008, 09:15 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by FliFast
... I gotta ask, are you really that unhappy working for UPS and think this is a crummy outfit ? I find that hard to believe since many of the very experienced here have decided to fly past age 60 instead of leaving so they must think this is a good gig too...
Not to forget, many just can't imagine a life without their Clark benefits.
12-04-2008, 06:03 PM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: Dispatcher
Posts: 40
Flifast,
Thank you for your kind remarks concerning the Dispatchers at UPS. We do appreciate it.
757,
I had a long response typed up but deleted it. Not worth my time. We deal with know-it-all and closed-minded crews like you on a daily basis. Any time you want to actually see what we do, stop on by. You are more than welcome to sit with me.
Thank you for your kind remarks concerning the Dispatchers at UPS. We do appreciate it.
757,
I had a long response typed up but deleted it. Not worth my time. We deal with know-it-all and closed-minded crews like you on a daily basis. Any time you want to actually see what we do, stop on by. You are more than welcome to sit with me.
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