Phantom Flyer

Maybe it's just me but I find the court's decision in the case of the four defendants in the United Air Lines vs. ALPA to be very disturbing.

One doesn't have to have an advanced degree in Business or a law degree to realize that "Captain's authority" is under a full scale attack and the federal court is now in a position to second guess a Captain on decisions that he/she may make. What if you shoot an approach to minimums and end up missing the approach and diverting to your alternate. If the aircraft in front of you and the trailing aircraft end up landing successfully, then your actions could be construed by the court to have been designed to have an economic impact on the company even though the weather, when you got to DH (or MDA), was such that a safe landing could not have been made. It's not a stretch to see the Captain being brought into court to defend his/her actions as a violation of the court order and if you think UAL won't do it, you're living in a dream world. Is the court going to decide what braking action is acceptable or what tower prevailing visibility is required ?

In their e-mail to all United pilots, the defendants stated," As a result of the Court's order, all United pilots are at risk from any delays or cancellations related to pilots. We cannot take any economic action against the company in response to the court's decision,..." Please think about that phase Ladies & Gentlemen.

United and other carriers have gutted our pensions, our schedules, taken benefits and what ever else they can. The only thing they have not taken is the authority to operate their aircraft and make decisions about how that aircraft is operated. Well, here comes that battle and it will reach everyone on this forum at some point in time and some fashion. Look at the battle U.S. Airways pilots have had over fuel loading, and how has your company handled scheduling practices of late. We are under attack and we better stand together or we will certainly loose the battle.

I don't have all the answers and there are some really bright minds on this forum but action by everyone is needed if this once proud profession is going to survive.

On a brighter note, we still have a lot to be thankful for and to everyone who is still in a cockpit seat on any aircraft no matter what or where you fly, thanks for trying to keep the piloting profession an honourable and proud one.

Happy Thanksgiving to all !!

G'Day Mates and eat wisely....aw hell, just enjoy !!

757upspilot

Captains authority. Come to UPS and you will see the total lack of Captains authority, none , nada, zip

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Really? A month or so ago a captain bumped 3 mx supervisors in ONT. I have no idea what that was all about but how did he bump those sups if he has no captain authority?

Are you saying that all your decisions are being challenged by the company or that you simply are not allowed to make any decisions on your own?
Confused...

Carl Spackler

This shouldn't be scary folks. I've used my authority hundreds of times. I was always prepared with the facts to back up my decision during the inevitable rug dance with the chief pilot du juor. Sometimes they got angry, but the facts always speak for themselves.

If you don't use your authority as you see fit, the ensuing error could cost you your license. Which would you rather lose, your job or your license?

Captain's authority can NEVER be taken away, it can only be GIVEN away.

Carl

CAVOK84

Carl,

Very well put. Keeping that in mind helps prevent me from constantly second guessing my career decision with so many issues that we face. I love to fly and I don't know if I could be happy doing anything else, however, I often wonder if I should have gone to med school or law school.

Phantom Flyer

I would agree Carl; however, let's say that the authority the Captain has under the FAR's is being "threatened" by the likes of Mr. Tilton et al. If we,as a group, don't stand tall and say "Hell No", you're not taking our authority to operate the aircraft in a safe, professional manner while making decisions we feel are appropriate under the circumstances, then we've lost the battle.

The situation at United is unique and that prompted the thread. I'm just concerned that the pressures to reduce the authority the Captain has will spread across the board in time....if not checked.

I hope I'm wrong.

G'Day Mates

slowplay

There's a corollary to that. If we as a group don't stand tall and say "Hell No, you're not acting contrary to the law and in an unprofessional manner" then we will continue to get what we deserve in third party rulings.

There is ZERO diminishment of Captain's authority in the UAL vs. ALPA court ruling.

APA limited the labor flexibility of all pilots with their actions after Judge Kendall's ruling. A certain number of United pilots have gotten our whole association crossways with the law again, and put us all at risk. Maybe if our profession did a better job of policing itself, and not trying to hide industrial action behind the mantle of "authority", we wouldn't see our Union being held accountable for those types of actions.

It's our responsibility to follow the prudent path.

Gee, I think I've read those three italicized words before....seems like some don't like that "accountability" word.

Carl Spackler

It's always being threatened by some management geek. They can threaten all they want, but if they're not in the left seat - they have no say. If you have the facts to backup your decision, any court attempt to sanction you will fail. If a pilot doesn't have any facts on his side, then he/she doesn't have the temperament to be in the left seat yet.

I don't mean to sound like such a hard ass here, but the FAR's do not delineate "we" and "our" in the description of the authority granted to the Pilot In Command. It is a singular granting of authority to one person and one person only. Federal law is completely on your side when you act as a prudent commander who is only intersted in safety.

I know it feels unique to you right now, but it's not. Don't worry about the collective in this regard. Worry only about what YOU think is correct and safe - then act accordingly. That's all you need to know.

Carl

captjns

Well said Carl.

People... at the end of the day if management wants to manage an errant captain off the property... they will... even as the Union turns their head as one of their own is sacrificed... or for a lack of a better term... whacked... nothing personal... it just business.

Remember captains both current and future... regardless of what the courts decide or the view or management... the one who had the keys to the jet is the one who is responsible for the safety of carriage of passengers, crew, passengers and cargo.

And if an accident that arises out of the necessity by the captain to be a company man to complete the mission??? well you all figure it out how the skipper will be regarded when he/she has their day in court by both management and his representatives.

757upspilot

Bumping people is not using Captains authority.

The fact that every decision made by a Captain that doesn't please the van drivers promoted to contingency in hooterville is questioned. That they presume that they have the authority to pass judgement on the decisions is the problem. We have dispatchers who think they have sole authority over the flights from fuel loads to alternates, without input from the Captains or crews is the problem. The second guessing of the deicing of aircraft by some ACP sitting in and aircraft on the other side of the airport is the problem.
The decisions that need to be made are made.