I am aware of one fellow pilot who got devalued by emirates. Screw emirates. It's amazing what us dollars can do when you hand them over by the boat load to the price gougers of opec.

What happens when the "merit system" not only gets it wrong and promotes ineptitude and incompetence, it does so consistently and on a large scale?

Just about any ex-military can tell horror stories about this. I saw good pilots and officers fall by the wayside, while brown-nosers who couldn't fly out of a wet paper bag get the promotion. Fortunately for the military, this seemed to end at about O-6, colonel. O-6 and above, the vetting is so intense, few losers slip through.

Most of us who transitioned to a seniority based system felt a sense of profound relief.

Brown nosing will go just so far. Perhaps into the upgrade program. Let's face it if their skills or lack thereof will be demonstrated in the simulator... then the line training process. That's where, provided there is a proper training and checking staff will wash out the brown noser.

Unfortunately it delays the upgrade for those who deserve it.

Years ago, when I was flying in the Guard, and in the Arilines, I was trying to talk a Gaurd buddy into going to my airline. He was a full timer, a real fast burner at the Guard, hard worker, but in the office all day.

Not my idea of a good time, but he said he didn't want to be a Flight Engineer for several years before he got a window seat. He couldn't understand why he would have to go 'backwards' (he was a KC135 AC) when he took an airline job.

I had to explain the seniority system to him, and how, when your number comes up, you move up. He said "You mean to tell me if one guy is a slacker, a real idiot, but he's senior to another guy, who is a hard worker, the slacker gets to move up first??!"

And I said, "Yup, but that's the beauty of it, sucking up and kissing arse won't get you to upgrade any faster, like the Military does!"

The joke of the day was, if someone really couldn't fly, they'd give him a desk job, usually in the Safety Office, because it was much safer for everyone, to have him in an office!

Oh, my buddy didn't go to the airlines, but did advance all the way to the number 1 spot at our unit and retired as an O6...then he calls me up, to see if the airlines are hiring...:rolleyes:

At my airline, if you fail your upgrade ride, they'll give you a second shot, if you fail it again, you go back to where you were, and stay there.

Devalued? ... says a guy who flew a 737 for $2500/month and no insurance at a union airline... ;)

Don't get defensive, I did as well at one of the oldest ALPA carriers though at least I had good health coverage from Day 1. But that's the part that devalues the job because someone who's been there longer gets paid 3-4 times as much for the same job. Now enter bean counters who look at the low end of pay for the same job and the high end and go ***?!?

Seriously... you'll find horror shows everywhere, but Emirates use of seniority system is FAR superior to anything in the US, from pay scales to schedules.

Sadly, you'll never convince a union guy that absolute seniority system is actually devaluing him, and it's promoting mediocrity as it doesn't take anything else into account beside date of hire; it doesn't promote excellence, or self improvement, nor does it reward anything. In fact, it only promotes bare bones existence. In the end, the product suffers because people have NO incentive to do anything beyond existing.

The Flight Crew wants not another lowest bidding regional with new hire pay scales, warrantied A/C and tax deals with localities for start up operations.
These type operations blow through start up cash and only remain viable for a couple years at best while established operations suffer the carnage they cause.

I don't believe this for a moment. The biggest motivator for unionized pilots to go "above and beyond" is simply being properly compensated by a company that values them.

Back when AA was doing well, pilots were going to extremes to maximize the customer experience. A guy didn't have to help that old lady in a wheelchair, but he did anyhow. Guys didn't have to worry about conserving fuel, but they did this as well. The list is huge.

When treated like pond scum, then yes, performance suffers, but this has nothing to do with the seniority system.

Pilots are not sluggards. They take pride in improving their skills, expanding their knowledge, and doing a great job, seniority system or not.