Sullenburger Steps up to the Plate for Pilots
02-11-2009 | 08:01 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
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Our licenses are a joke abroad. Have you ever seen the requirements for an ATP outside the U.S. The book work is daunting compared to ours. It doesn't mean their pilots are better its just that they have gone through a better vetting process than ours is.
BTW, I'm all for creating an elitist society of aviators that are sought after for employment in this country. That means our standard of living, etc., will rise.
BTW, I'm all for creating an elitist society of aviators that are sought after for employment in this country. That means our standard of living, etc., will rise.
You’re right that the book work while converting was daunting but often I also felt like I was being fed some useless information. Who cares about celestial navigation and learning how to calculate sunsets and sunrises anywhere on earth when the flying itself is prohibitively expensive?
In my view the American style training consists of many more actual flying hours while the European trained pilots have more ground school “chair” hours.
In the end both systems work just fine, however to say that our (US) licenses are not as good as the European licenses simply because we don’t have to learn as much garbage as our European counterparts is simply wrong.
In the end, I bet what helped Sully the most was not the countless hours he spent in the class room but the actual flying experience or maybe even his prior glider experience.
That’s my ¼ ¢ or ½ €¢ if you prefer.
02-11-2009 | 08:12 PM
#33
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 71
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I could not agree more. Unfortunately, commercial aviation has lent itself to the notion that, with enough time and money, any rating can be obtained by anyone. I'm not for creating some sort of club of elitists, but rather a corps of professionals who have met demanding, uncompromising standards that not everyone can meet. The Air Force has probably washed out thousands of pilots over the years for landing a T-38 10 knots fast or a couple hundred feet long - and God Bless that. There is no do over, no re-test, and no amount of money can get a guy his wings. I would love to see the FAA take a similar approach to standards. Instead of flooding the market with cheap goods, ala Wal-Mart, our government would be wise to see the return of the American pilot as the gold standard of aviation. Our licenses are a joke to the European and Middle Eastern carriers.
I will concede the fact that military pilots receive superior training, but that does not mean they are superior pilots. Being a professional pilot is first and foremost a mindset. You understand you have an enormous responsibility, and you prepare yourself and maintain a level of knowledge and experience that demonstrates that professionalism.
I served in the armed forces on the ground, and have done all my flying on the civilian side. I've circled the globe in heavies more times that I care to remember. I flown for regionals, freight airlines, majors and corporate operators. I've flown pistons, turboprops and jets. I've seen military pilots who couldn't fly their way out of a brown paper bag and crusty old civilian skippers who made Chuck Yeager look like a hack. I've also seen the exact opposite.
Good pilots come from both backgrounds. So do bad ones. That's the way it is. To think otherwise is foolish. If you're a fool, you have no business in this profession.
Last edited by vagabond; 02-11-2009 at 08:55 PM. Reason: removed profanity
02-11-2009 | 08:23 PM
#34
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Joined: Nov 2008
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From: Livin' the dream
View from the wrong side of the tracks
I for one am glad I live in a country where anyone can become a professional pilot if they display and demonstrate the desire and aptitude required.
The idea of placing needless b.s. in the path for those to come in hopes of raising one's security and financial status really rubs me the wrong way. If you feel that way, take a look at aviation around the world. You basically have to be a fortunate son or daughter, or have some major nepotism going on to get into professional, or even fun flying if you live overseas. The U.S. has the most freedom, yes, even now, for an individual who wants to enter aviation. It should stay that way. Sorry if it means there's a supply and demand problem. If you think that the feds putting up some new iron curtain of standards and knowledge is going to help though, you're wrong. The Airlines would only recruit candidates from zillions of interested applicants, train them to their required standards, and still keep the supply up to keep cost and (your) pay down.
Find another answer rather than limiting the freedoms of those who come after you.
The idea of placing needless b.s. in the path for those to come in hopes of raising one's security and financial status really rubs me the wrong way. If you feel that way, take a look at aviation around the world. You basically have to be a fortunate son or daughter, or have some major nepotism going on to get into professional, or even fun flying if you live overseas. The U.S. has the most freedom, yes, even now, for an individual who wants to enter aviation. It should stay that way. Sorry if it means there's a supply and demand problem. If you think that the feds putting up some new iron curtain of standards and knowledge is going to help though, you're wrong. The Airlines would only recruit candidates from zillions of interested applicants, train them to their required standards, and still keep the supply up to keep cost and (your) pay down.
Find another answer rather than limiting the freedoms of those who come after you.
02-11-2009 | 08:28 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
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... The idea of placing needless b.s. in the path for those to come in hopes of raising one's security and financial status really rubs me the wrong way. If you feel that way, take a look at aviation around the world. You basically have to be a fortunate son or daughter, or have some major nepotism going on to get into professional, or even fun flying if you live overseas. The U.S. has the most freedom, yes, even now, for an individual who wants to enter aviation. It should stay that way...
02-12-2009 | 12:30 AM
#36
Blue Skies
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 778
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From: C208B
I know at least when I get back to Norway and take the ATP(L) over there, it will be about 14 exams in one week, and an exam on morse code before I can get it
02-12-2009 | 01:55 AM
#37
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Unmanned tactical aircraft can exist due to the progress in automation and remote technology versus the slower progress in aircraft performance.
It all seems like a race to me...Professional, skilled pilots can only convincingly justify their existence to the public when perceptions exist that automation and remote control technologies aren't sophisticated enough to safely and efficiently manage performance.
I haven't yet flown a day of 121 or 135...but it stings to read the following on a blog about why pilots don't get tipped:
"As a pilot myself, I find it amusing how everyone thinks we make big bucks. People always figure we have hundreds of lives in our hands, both in air and on the ground, but that isn't true. Airline planes have auto-pilot, so the people in the cockpit are really just there to make the passengers feel better. The big jets can fly without pilots, but who would get on a plane being operated by some guy in a dark control room at an undisclosed ground location? Of course, the salary of pilots isn't so bad when you consider the benfits they get. All pilots are compensated fairly for their work, just like everyone else with a job."
Y'all remember that?
I only wish that the good captain's interview today was given more attention than it probably has been.
It all seems like a race to me...Professional, skilled pilots can only convincingly justify their existence to the public when perceptions exist that automation and remote control technologies aren't sophisticated enough to safely and efficiently manage performance.
I haven't yet flown a day of 121 or 135...but it stings to read the following on a blog about why pilots don't get tipped:
"As a pilot myself, I find it amusing how everyone thinks we make big bucks. People always figure we have hundreds of lives in our hands, both in air and on the ground, but that isn't true. Airline planes have auto-pilot, so the people in the cockpit are really just there to make the passengers feel better. The big jets can fly without pilots, but who would get on a plane being operated by some guy in a dark control room at an undisclosed ground location? Of course, the salary of pilots isn't so bad when you consider the benfits they get. All pilots are compensated fairly for their work, just like everyone else with a job."
Y'all remember that?
I only wish that the good captain's interview today was given more attention than it probably has been.
02-12-2009 | 03:43 AM
#38
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Joined: Jun 2008
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...the most basic training is abbreviated enough that a MPL pilot graduate is incompetent and legally unable to fly as a rated solo pilot without further training.
It's feared to be one more step toward making the airline pilot profession into true brain-dead bus driving. I believe the consensus around the hangar is that such training programs will produce a pilot who is drastically inferior in skills, experience, and overall safety.
At the very least it will provide corporate management greater justification to slash incentives...to be honest, having gone through the run-of-the mill GA/college training, I couldn't respect that riff raff
It's feared to be one more step toward making the airline pilot profession into true brain-dead bus driving. I believe the consensus around the hangar is that such training programs will produce a pilot who is drastically inferior in skills, experience, and overall safety.
At the very least it will provide corporate management greater justification to slash incentives...to be honest, having gone through the run-of-the mill GA/college training, I couldn't respect that riff raff
Calling people with different attitudes elitists just goes on top of the general opinion that every high school drop out with some cash should have the opportunity to warm the sheepskin. The job is paid accordingly.
02-12-2009 | 06:31 AM
#39
No longer cares
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From: 767er Captain
02-12-2009 | 07:25 AM
#40
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Joined: Nov 2006
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It is not whether we were raised as military or civilian pilots, the reality is that our current abilities are the sum of our respective experiences! Right place, right time is the only real factor in this industry that affects hiring and upgrade. Apart from the random TMATT question during the interview, there is no place to expound on your experiences. All the airlines care about is that you "meet the minimum". Some may say that they target those above the minimum and have the right references/experience, but we all know that it can often be otherwise.
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