Huh?! There WAS a first oficer on that plane???

 

A valid point, but there are a few points that I believe to deserve consideration. Your comparison of medical residency is probably less comparable to the position of first officer than it is to any pilot during IOE. Once a doctor completes residency, generally speaking, he or she is a full fledged physician. Doctors don't revert to being residents or interns due to seniority, economic factors. Pilots do (revert to first officer positions). I'm not even sure that a Doctor reverts to being a resident in the case of a change in specialty. Don't know...

The moral of the above story that I'm trying to get to is this:

First Officers exist, first and foremost, because we recognize that it isn't safe, reasonable, or effective for one pilot to have to manage potential heavy workloads and long duty periods alone. We give the Captain more authority because democratic decisions can't be made in a machine moving toward potential disaster near the speed of sound. Someone has to be able to make a snap decision; there isn't always time for a committee. In a good CRM environment, we recognize that a First Officer's voice should be heard...he or she is also there as a consiglieri of sorts. That being said, when you're operating a machine with that much speed, energy, complexity, and cost, decisions ultimately come to one person.

Where am I going with this?

Well in the situation of practicing doctors and residents, the practicing physicians are, to my knowledge, always more experienced than the residents working under them. This is not always the case with pilots. A less experienced Captain may fly with a more experienced first officer based on economic factors. A person could also be a Captain for years and become an FO because of a change of airframe. A more experienced pilot could be sitting right seat to a greener airman simply due to company seniority alone. A Mesaba pilot may upgrade to Captain in the Saab after spending his or her entire tenure in the CRJ. The first officers he or she flies with will undoubtedly have more experience on airframe, and in some cases, in the air in general! That individual is not a Captain to be a mentor, at least not by logic...that person is a Captain because they were hired first...and someone has to call the shots. In these cases, the FO is better suited as an adviser than the Captain is as a teacher.

The moral is, practicing physicians are masters, and residents are apprentices. Period.

The same is not always true for pilots...and I use this as indirect evidence to support my opinion that the cockpit of an airliner is somewhat less appropriate for on-the-job training than an operating room. I recognize that the First Officer position is used to get experience before many upgrade to Captain.

But a modern first officer can fly other aircraft as pilot in command, just not necessarily for their airline or under part 121. FOs may even be PIC typed on their respective airframe...and may only be an FO because they were displaced. A resident, however, cannot practice medicine as a doctor outside of the hospital where they are working/training. Without the residency, said doctor is a waste of thousands of dollars of training...at least as far as I understand...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bottom line: A resident is an apprentice...

Apprentice defined: a person who works for another in order to learn a trade.

A First officer is a cut above, as he or she is competent to perform their craft. An FO is a journeyman...

Journeyman defined: a craftsman. a skilled worker who practices some trade or handicraft.

The important distinction is that the apprentice is not qualified to work in the craft without training and guidance. A journeyman is qualified to work in the craft but is not recognized as master. The master (Captain in this case), is recognized for having the highest level of skill, authority, and (only in the cases of true working trades) more experience.

Sky, neither of us may have a truly accurate depiction of the appropriate level of learning and skill associated with the FO position. I'm nitpicking because I think apprentice is a somewhat less accurate way of looking at it. The skill level is reputed to be a bit higher IMHO.

In my understanding, the training equivalent to an apprenticeship begins when you first start flying. If you are a crew member responsible for lives, One might expect you to be at least a journeyman of your craft...at least someone who is licensed and reputed to already be capable of your craft...even if you're not a master.

I apologize, as I am nitpicking, but hey...it's a forum...it's all in good fun.

Beyond this difference in perspective, I also recognize that medical doctors sporadically face situations requiring split second decision making and procedures. More often than not, residents can be afforded more time for task completion and more patience. With the exception of the high paced ER, triage scenarios, residents have more guidance, with less pressure to get it done right now.

Pilots don't have the same luxury. If the FO can't do it at full speed, he or she can't do it at all. You can't be going through the motions in professional flying. You can be a gear puller...but gear pulling alone won't make a solid pilot with safe, sound skills.

One final point, if the doctor and his or her intern truly screw up, you might bury one person.

If a crew, including an apprentice or journeyman FO screws up, you could be burying hundreds of people. Maybe more.

Okay...catching a breath.

 

Here I concede that you have a point. That being said, I understand from what you have said, that desperation exists and why. But that doesn't mean we can praise any solution. It may be easier, but it isn't necessarily best. Again, just more conjecture from yours truly, the time building chotch.

 

Sky - you know me as a person who has collected infraction over infraction from frequenting the "Leaving the Career" section of this forum.
This is the first time I have seen eye to eye with you and get to see that you represent more than being upset. I agree with you on too many of your above statements to list here. I also have no "earned right" to frequent the "Major" forum because I have never walked a mile or yard in a 121 Captains shoes and never ever will. I just grew up around the people who did and saw first hand how a profession has been turned into a trashcan.

MPL is not really the issue in my opinion. What kind of a joke it has developed into is the real issue and how we as pilots and the industry and employer of such pilots have accepted it to become a standard.

We have accepted minor skill and experience into the cockpit. The old school captains sat there like cattle, doing nothing about it. If I go to med school, can I perform brain surgery a week after I get out? If I go to law school, can I take on Phillip Morris a week after I get out? If I become a car mechanic at a local community college, can I go out and fix a Porsche?

Let me think.... ahhh, let me think some more.... No! Absolutely NOT!
The guy that fixes my Porsche has grey hair and I pay him dearly for 40 years experience... You have no right to touch it, I'd rather pay 150/ hour and have it done right, than 20/hour to have my doors fall off at 120MPH...
All it takes to earn the epaulets and the wings is 50.000 dollars, a loan or rich parents. Effort: 3 months. ZERO to HERO in 250 Hours, no Instruction involved. The airlines need a seat kept warm, so, here is a shot, youngster, and $20.000/ year should be fine, right? What? No? But we have to teach you how to fly now... well better take it, there is another guy with 7 hours more and he'll love the job. It's become a job, not a career.

From what I see when looking at new vs. old generation pilots is a terrible imbalance. Value and Price are no longer in check. A good brain surgeon t costs what? A Million a year? If I walked into the operating room tomorrow and said: "Let me try it, teach me as I go along" would they pay me that much too? Now flying a plane requires much less skill and talent than operating on a human beings brain. When we screw up, the gear is bent.
When a Doctor screws up, there is someone walking around drooling heavily for the rest of his/ her life. Doctors have done nothing but to look out that their profession does not go to the cheapest bidder. The hospitals can simply not take the risk to hire someone off the street.
Airlines do! The mob wants to travel cheap too!

We need to get motivation and integrity back into our own ranks. Then, and I'm afraid only then will things change. For us pilots, we could maybe start seeing this profession as a "Career" again, not as a "Job".
Chewing gum in a cockpit may be cool by H.S. standards, but it really isn't.
We have allowed high school kids into the cockpit of the most expensive airplanes carrying hundreds of people. Now, we are reaping the rewards.

Don't complain, change it.
If you notice you can't change it, get out and do something with your life.
(For heavens sakem, DO!!! A plumber apprentice makes more money!)
We need the gray haired captains and old school people to beat some common sense into the youngsters. But, they won't care. Sully makes 300K/ year either if he flies with Skiles (equal times and a lot more style than so many of his peers) or with John Doe, who had 50K and was admitted to a learning seat. Unless Sully cares and speaks up, nothing will happen. Our pilot community is as divided as our country. Being divided has brought our country into the gutter. Unite, keep the stupid unions away, and start to collect people in the field, willing to see your point and stand up for your cause. Pressure the airlines to provide you with quality pilots again, for the right seat. Don't fly, if they won't. Sounds stupid easy, but I bet money it would work. Pilots know what Pilots need. Make it happen.
Nobody else can or will or wants to fix it. Stand up for your peers and learn that you cant have the pot without putting a dime in yourself.

Rant off, and Mods don't send any more infractions, my PM box is full already.

 

I doubt Sully makes 300K/year.

According to APC numbers if he only flies the monthly guarantee he should be getting $108,000/year.

If somehow he's getting the highest USAirways rate which is for the A330 he should be making $138,240/year.
Of course, this does not include flying over guarantee, trip rigs, open time, etc, etc.

The FO should be getting $73,440/year as he's been there for years and is getting the max A320 FO pay rate which is $85/hour.

Hope I got all the numbers right...

A320 captain max guarantee pay = $108,000/year ($125 * 72 hours/month guarantee)
A330 captain max guarantee pay = $138,240/year ($160 * 72 hours/month guarantee)

A320 FO max guarantee pay = $73,440/year ($85 * 72 hours/month guarantee)

 

I have never seen the connection of 1000 hours of touch and goes in a 172 to being a better airline pilot. The rules, procedures and flight operations are totally different in part 121 transport category flying from piston VFR.

If a new FO can make it through ground school, the simulator and IOE then they are good enough. If the FAA or management thought that more was necessary then they would have made regulations to reflect that. Why then can't a shortened program be created to provide cadet pilots with what they need and nothing more?

The last two and a half years of airline flying have seen the lowest flight time career entrants and also has been the most safe. There is no connection to first officer experience beyond the minimums and added safety. Why would any airline pay more to get pilots with more experience?

There is no incentive for airlines to pay more. The job is getting easier thanks to automation. Management knows that they can hire wonder kids who are willing do it for free. Unions are in full retreat. The gene is out of the bottle. I wish things were different. We can't fix this.

Skyhigh

 

Sky,

I never really said 1000 touch and goes in a 172; I meant to suggest that some experience is better other kinds in the above quote. Regardless, you have adequately qualified the notion that not all experience is equal in value. But even useless experience can be a confidence builder. We can argue all day about the validity of hours and experience till the cows come home. I still hold to my point about the "10%" of flying problems people can't prepare for or aren't exposed to during training.

But, you are undoubtedly right about the management perspective. As for professional pilots being unable to reverse current trends, you may be right there as well. I sincerely hope you're wrong though. Intensely.

The one thing that keeps my spirits high, is that GA is still here for the time being. Which brings me to another question: with future pro pilots being mass produced in MPL/AbIn programs, who will carry the torch for GA?

No matter where I wind up, I hasten to say that I cling to my bug smashin' roots.

 

Sky,

I never really said 1000 touch and goes in a 172; I meant to suggest that some experience is better other kinds in the above quote. Regardless, you have adequately qualified the notion that not all experience is equal in value. But even useless experience can be a confidence builder. We can argue about the validity of hours and experience till the cows come home. I still hold to my point about the "10%" of flying problems people can't prepare for or aren't exposed to during training.

But, you are undoubtedly right about the management perspective. As for professional pilots being unable to reverse current trends, you may be right there as well. I sincerely hope you're wrong though. Intensely.

The one thing that keeps my spirits high, is that GA is still pretty exciting (however imperfect) for the time being. Which brings me to another question: with future pro pilots being mass produced in MPL/AbIn programs, who will carry the torch for GA?

No matter where I wind up, I hasten to say that I cling to my bug smashin' roots.

 

CareerCFI, with a name like this, and your intended inclusion of being that of a non-CA ( with no hopes of ever being one in the 121 Field ) Who are you to make such bold statements about thousands of pilots you've never/will never fly with ? What kind of a man sits back at the computer and throws such disparaging remarks about the state of the industry, when even Skyhigh is of the belief that if you can get through training/IOE you deserve to be there. I feel ashamed to call you a brethern at this point and I can only hope you're not making some convoluted connection to what happened in BUF last night to the state of the industry. As stated multiple times by almost everyone on this forum, we're all here to do a job and to do it safely. There is no need for Grey Hairs to ' beat the sense into us ' and tell us not to chew gum in the cockpit. It is no ones fault that the state of the industry is such as it was whenever a pilot gets hired, and no one should be put under scrutiny because of this. When airlines hire, they hire, you jump on if/when you can. For someone to say that the level of what a PAX is getting for the same price of a ticket is less now than it was before, is pig-headed at best, and I only hope some day you wake up from such a dillusion of the mind.

 

Too many great posts here to quote them all. So I will feebly attempt to remember what was said.

Perhaps management thinks this is the best way to fill seats. Perhaps also, some of us will choose this route to an airline career.

The bottom line is we control what we choose to do. If we choose to go the abinit route, then we have further condemned this profession.

To bolster the Sultans point, Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment. Neither comes from abinit training.