Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 559280)

Carl and ACL and Superpilot and Bucking and the rest:

I understand you are upset about this scope and some of you are single issue people so there won't be a meeting of the minds. I would just like to see if you could step back for one second and attempt to take one snapshot of a strategic picture and not get lost in the weeds.

Where should the Delta and Northwest pilots be right now? By all rights we should be at each others throats, fighting about contracts, seniority, furlough, and all of the rest that goes along with a typical merger (for historic examples see Republic-Northwest and US Air-America West). We should be scrounging along with our bankruptcy contracts with no hope for any gains at least until the recession ends or the contracts become amendable whichever occurs last. We should not have any stock from the merger and we should be complaining because the executives were the only ones who got stock.

Instead of having a single MEC working together, we should have two separate MEC's fighting with each other, maybe we would be whipsawing each other for concessions to avoid furloughs in the downturn. Delta would not be able to fully take advantage of the merger benefits, so there would be more losses, less flying, and less need for pilots. We should be setting ourselves up for 15-20 more years of hatred and infighting so we can be just like Red Book - Green Book (please don't tell us you were just one big happy family, we have seen too much to believe that story any more).

So why aren't we there? What we can all see from the arbitration transcripts is that the whole idea was Lee Moak's. Not Dave Stevens, who tried to take credit, not John Prater who tried to take credit, the entire idea was Lee's. Get involved up front, get stock, get contract benefits, get the seniority list done early, get the MEC's merged early, get working together so the merger benefited pilots and not just shareholders and senior management.

Lest you forget, this has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE in the history of labor and mergers. Never. Any industry, any labor group. It is easy to forget how ground breaking this was because it is all old hat now, as if this were the standard path. Think of this evolution:

1. Talking to senior management to get them on board
2. Going to the Board of Directors to introduce them to the idea
3. Going directly to the major shareholders to talk them into supporting the idea
4. Going back to the Board of Directors to seal the deal

Think about how that happened and let me know if there isn't something in there that impresses you. Could you have done it? Could you have even thought it up? Imagine during each step when the guys sitting on the other side of the table said "You want to do WHAT? Are you crazy?" Remember these are the people who own and run the company.

The idea was so new and different, that the hardest people to get on board were the Northwest MEC members. They were constantly threatening to scuttle the process.

Not only that, but Lee and the MEC had to keep the Delta pilots on board throughout the process. Just think, rather than come in with outrageous seniority proposals, the Delta MEC started with a list almost identical to the one produced by three arbitrators months later. That just isn't done, you have to be unreasonable in these things. Contractual benefits that went disproportionately to one group, full pay parity on day one.

As we traveled down the bumpy road, all along the way, there was opportunity after opportunity to blow things up. Just look at the way the Northwest MEC and their administration handled things. They couldn't even tell the truth to their own pilots. Think about LOA 19. Shouldn't the Delta pilots have just left the Northwest pilots hanging out in the wind? Isn't that the history of these things. What kind of leadership and vision does it take to avoid that? How about the most recent elections. Couldn't the Delta MEC have just taken all the officer positions and left the Northwest pilots out in the cold?

Think of the recent history of airline mergers and tell me how they have gone. Have the US Airways pilots even gotten $0.01 cent of a raise since their 2005 bankruptcy contract? What is Captain Sully making right now? Think of the vision, the effort, the leadership that went into get billions, yes that is billions, of benefits for the Delta pilots (and I mean all 12,400) when everything pointed to us getting nothing but a giant ****ing contest.

So after all these things that have brought job security, contractual improvements, retirement improvements, Delta stock to go into retirement accounts, and the mere fact that we are not fighting each other now, it comes down to these 76 seat jets.

Let's examine the issue. We have about 25 jets getting an additional 6 seats. (you know that they could be operated with 70 seats with no changes to the contract, right?). 25 times 6 is 150. That means we are talking about the lift capacity of one A-320. 12 jobs for mainline. If you think the option B would be to buy 25 737-700's or Embraer 190's then you are just dreaming.

Am I happy about this? No, but I long ago learned that world doesn't care that much about my happiness so I have learned to live with the fact that sometimes I will be disappointed.

So either these 150 seats are a big deal or they aren't. If they are a big deal, then the furlough protection for those 400 junior pilots means something. If it's a big deal, then the company would not want to lose it, right?

If it's not a big deal then what are we talking about.

As I said before, I don't even hope to talk you down from the ledge. If you can't at least acknowledge the leadership and vision that it took to get us all where we are today, crying about these 76 seat jets when virtually every other pilot group is facing massive furloughs and retrenching, then there isn't much more to say. Try for a second to think of the strategic position we are in today versus where all of history, all conventions, all rights that point to a much worse position.

How did we get here?

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 559292)

But we have a HUGE battle approaching because management says there is not a viable replacement for the DC9, and appears as if they are in NO hurry to find one. This will start soon, as its likely the new DAL will not invest into the DC9s to keep them flying.

Originally Posted by Fly4hire (Post 559314)

Do we have proof of this other than anecdotal comments made that are residual misunderstanding about the cycle limit on the DC9 from the SLI hearings where DALPA was trying everything they could to diminish the role of the DC and those who flew them?

We are getting mixed signals on the future of the DC9 (other than of course it will be eventfully replaced). The cycle out by 2012 issue is a red herring, where the real factor is Navaid compliance and the 88's have the identical issue. So even if they don't invest most are still good to 2012 assuming the navaid requirements are not slid

OK, so MD90 and possibly 717 may be used as a MD88, but not DC9 replacement? If this is the case it will still be post SOC so will effect everyone as pilots would displace off of the DC9 into what their seniority can hold. All the 717/MD90 available will not replace even the current 88 fleet.

The DC9 is ~1400 pilot jobs at DAL staffing formulas - as much as dislike this 76 seat deal, I find it hard to believe those jobs, together with another ~3000 MD jobs are for sale to 76 seat encroachment.

Conspiracies are fun, but show me some proof of this other than this 76 seat grievance settlement.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 559280)

Carl and ACL and Superpilot and Bucking and the rest:

I understand you are upset about this scope and some of you are single issue people so there won't be a meeting of the minds. I would just like to see if you could step back for one second and attempt to take one snapshot of a strategic picture and not get lost in the weeds.

Where should the Delta and Northwest pilots be right now? By all rights we should be at each others throats, fighting about contracts, seniority, furlough, and all of the rest that goes along with a typical merger (for historic examples see Republic-Northwest and US Air-America West). We should be scrounging along with our bankruptcy contracts with no hope for any gains at least until the recession ends or the contracts become amendable whichever occurs last. We should not have any stock from the merger and we should be complaining because the executives were the only ones who got stock.

Instead of having a single MEC working together, we should have two separate MEC's fighting with each other, maybe we would be whipsawing each other for concessions to avoid furloughs in the downturn. Delta would not be able to fully take advantage of the merger benefits, so there would be more losses, less flying, and less need for pilots. We should be setting ourselves up for 15-20 more years of hatred and infighting so we can be just like Red Book - Green Book (please don't tell us you were just one big happy family, we have seen too much to believe that story any more).

So why aren't we there? What we can all see from the arbitration transcripts is that the whole idea was Lee Moak's. Not Dave Stevens, who tried to take credit, not John Prater who tried to take credit, the entire idea was Lee's. Get involved up front, get stock, get contract benefits, get the seniority list done early, get the MEC's merged early, get working together so the merger benefited pilots and not just shareholders and senior management.

Lest you forget, this has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE in the history of labor and mergers. Never. Any industry, any labor group. It is easy to forget how ground breaking this was because it is all old hat now, as if this were the standard path. Think of this evolution:

1. Talking to senior management to get them on board
2. Going to the Board of Directors to introduce them to the idea
3. Going directly to the major shareholders to talk them into supporting the idea
4. Going back to the Board of Directors to seal the deal

Think about how that happened and let me know if there isn't something in there that impresses you. Could you have done it? Could you have even thought it up? Imagine during each step when the guys sitting on the other side of the table said "You want to do WHAT? Are you crazy?" Remember these are the people who own and run the company.

The idea was so new and different, that the hardest people to get on board were the Northwest MEC members. They were constantly threatening to scuttle the process.

Not only that, but Lee and the MEC had to keep the Delta pilots on board throughout the process. Just think, rather than come in with outrageous seniority proposals, the Delta MEC started with a list almost identical to the one produced by three arbitrators months later. That just isn't done, you have to be unreasonable in these things. Contractual benefits that went disproportionately to one group, full pay parity on day one.

As we traveled down the bumpy road, all along the way, there was opportunity after opportunity to blow things up. Just look at the way the Northwest MEC and their administration handled things. They couldn't even tell the truth to their own pilots. Think about LOA 19. Shouldn't the Delta pilots have just left the Northwest pilots hanging out in the wind? Isn't that the history of these things. What kind of leadership and vision does it take to avoid that? How about the most recent elections. Couldn't the Delta MEC have just taken all the officer positions and left the Northwest pilots out in the cold?

Think of the recent history of airline mergers and tell me how they have gone. Have the US Airways pilots even gotten $0.01 cent of a raise since their 2005 bankruptcy contract? What is Captain Sully making right now? Think of the vision, the effort, the leadership that went into get billions, yes that is billions, of benefits for the Delta pilots (and I mean all 12,400) when everything pointed to us getting nothing but a giant ****ing contest.

So after all these things that have brought job security, contractual improvements, retirement improvements, Delta stock to go into retirement accounts, and the mere fact that we are not fighting each other now, it comes down to these 76 seat jets.

Let's examine the issue. We have about 25 jets getting an additional 6 seats. (you know that they could be operated with 70 seats with no changes to the contract, right?). 25 times 6 is 150. That means we are talking about the lift capacity of one A-320. 12 jobs for mainline. If you think the option B would be to buy 25 737-700's or Embraer 190's then you are just dreaming.

Am I happy about this? No, but I long ago learned that world doesn't care that much about my happiness so I have learned to live with the fact that sometimes I will be disappointed.

So either these 150 seats are a big deal or they aren't. If they are a big deal, then the furlough protection for those 400 junior pilots means something. If it's a big deal, then the company would not want to lose it, right?

If it's not a big deal then what are we talking about.

As I said before, I don't even hope to talk you down from the ledge. If you can't at least acknowledge the leadership and vision that it took to get us all where we are today, crying about these 76 seat jets when virtually every other pilot group is facing massive furloughs and retrenching, then there isn't much more to say. Try for a second to think of the strategic position we are in today versus where all of history, all conventions, all rights that point to a much worse position.

How did we get here?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 559347)

Let me break it down for you: Even if Lee is all wise, all knowing and all omnipotent, I WOULD RATHER HAVE A DEMOCRATICALLY DERIVED SOLUTION EVEN IF IT IS WORSE! Yes...even if it's worse than the perfect solutions that are always derived by Moak.

We are a democratic union. What is there about that you don't get?

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 559333)

Here is a article on the nines with a interview with NWA DC-9 manager in 1998 copied from the Dalpa forum.

LONDON - A detailed structural safety analysis was conducted before Northwest Airlines [NWAC] decided to keep flying its DC-9 fleet another 15 years. The carrier operates a fleet of 173 DC-9s.
Northwest plans to fly these airplanes to the year 2010. Upon retirement, the planes will have accumulated 40 years of service.
Speaking at an aging airliner conference here, Brad Mueller, Northwest's manager of fleet planning, said the DC-9 was a perfect fit for routes it was flying. The question was whether the airplane's structure could be flown to 100,000 flight cycles or more.
"Douglas had tested the airplane to more than 200,000 cycles," Mueller explained. At the time Northwest decided to invest about $10 million per plane for hushkits, new interiors, and other upgrades, Mueller said Northwest's DC-9's had logged about 65,000-70,000 cycles.
The manufacturer's extended fatigue testing verified the durability of the design. "This was the single biggest concern," Mueller said. "If the study had not satisfied the question (of structural safety), we wouldn't have done it."
Northwest plans to fly its DC-9's to about 100,000 cycles, at which point they will be retired. "Major modifications are needed at 104,000 cycles," Mueller explained.
Each airplane received a complete, $1 million new interior.
Mueller explained, "Customers associate what they can see, touch and feel as evidence of a well-maintained and safe airplane

Originally Posted by NuGuy (Post 559354)

Heyas Sailing,

That article referenced a cycle rate equivalent to 1998 utilization, which dropped significantly post 2001. NWA's own internal documents show airframe life well beyond 2012.

Nu