Eaglefly is entitled to his opinion. He may be correct about Arpey's response and a future chapter 11 filing. I must agree that something, some sort of compromise, must preface any serious labor action. Hill and APA are right to shoot for the moon, but we all know AA will have to split that difference or find middle ground to get a contract done.

I don't "envy" AA pilots and don't hate them either. I have several friends who fly there. Yes, I have little love for the APA, but emotion isn't clouding my perceptions and comments. In fact, emotion is one aspect more present this time unlike previous conflicts between mainline labor and management and I don't believe that will change. Emotion can be good and not so good and this time Lloyd will have to lead the hardline charge forward or lose face.

Perhaps you can convince me how AMR is to be a profitable company with enormous wage and contract improvements demanded by the APA coupled at the same time with revenue strangling scope provisions. I'm all ears.

First examine the APA's opener and then estimate what the minimum acceptable package for the pilots will be. Then apply an equal improvement for every other labor group there and then finally either remove all small jet operations or apply the above minimum mainline packages to ALL aspects of RJ operations (probably cheaper to give up all that revenue).

Finally, if you remove all RJ ops, figure out the revenue losses to AA when 40% of there passengers cannot book their mainline flights because they can't get there (AE folded/pulled out of their connecting city and competition serves it).

Personally I still see AA ending up at the same place regardless of whether the APA is successful or not. It's just a matter of when and it would only be less to AMR's advantage under the longer, more costly route.

I wish the APA the best, but it seems to me either a win or loss on the "house burning" plan still leaves most AA pilots homeless. The APA hasn't to my knowledge offered any financially viable options for AMR to pay the huge compensation increases being demanded "or else" this time.

Remember, you have to price EVERYBODY (all labor) getting an equal deal. I suppose AMR could give all that out, get out of the RJ business, capitulate to scope and shrink itself to a strickly International carrier, but what would 75% of the pilots do when they have no plane to fly when AA becomes a 100 widebody plane airline ?

That's about the only type of airline they can operate competitively with the "burning house" plan.

What am I missing ?

It IS just my opinion and I'm not rooting for AMR.

There is a lot of anger and emotion out there and expectations are high for a clean sweep. Modest contractual improvements with a further relaxation on scope will outrage most line pilots and leave Lloyd looking like another political stooge who talked, but didn't deliver.

Right now it looks like the Isrealis and the Palistinians with too much emotion and no interest in compromise. I'm not sure many AA pilots are willing to accept the possibility of compromise and that emotion may lead to worse outcome. As far as scope goes, the 2 options presented aren't doable. AA needs feed to survive and cannot fly much of that flying with its current labor costs, let alone any improvements. RJ's will not support mainline compensation for F/A's, gate, ramp and mechanics. Maybe if everyone else was on that level, but virtually no on is........all the way up to 90-seat CRJ-900's and EMB-190's.

That boat sailed.

Now what ?

So far, all there's been is pitchforks and economically unviable demands. I'm trying to put this together, but so far I haven't been able to make it work.

eaglefly,
Yes. You know exactly what AA managment can afford. Thank you for telling me and the APA that we are stupid to ask for a 50% raise. You do not work for American Airlines, yet you speak critically of Lloyd Hill as if you know him.
All you know is eagle rumors.
But please go ahead and continue to spout off how much you know about AA, APA and my contract.
We are in negotiations between APA and AA. I don't feel like listening to a eagle pilot like you telling me that my Mangaement cannot afford to pay me, and that they are going bankrupt anyway.
Please stick to what you know.
I don't normally get angered like this. Make your opinion, but do not tell me how to conduct myself and my union.
Get real.
7576

Actually I need to know virtually nothing of the above. The answers and realities actually are beyond that. Unfortunately, intoxicating emotion has the past models ruling the future success for the APA, yet the current issues were not present as they are now. I've not told you what to do about anything nor how to "conduct" yourself, but asked simple questions that request someone to demonstrate a viable plan to insure more money is made for AMR then more money spent with the current demands.

I don't believe the desires of the APA can produce more profit then expense when all other mainline labor is factored in, therefore it's not viable or realistic. I'd like to get Jennifer Anistons phone number or shoot baskets like Micheal Jordan, but that is equally flawed as desire alone doens't produce intended results.

Is it possible your anger really isn't with me, but with an increasing realization that the APA can't squeeze all the juice out of AMR and hope to taste that nectar forever ?

Sometimes intense desire leads to a fork in the road. Fantasy is one path, denial the other. Should someone place a sign between the two saying "dead end", it can result in frustration and anger.

Are you at that fork ?

It IS possible, you know.

Again, just clue me in how the numbers work so AMR can stay out of BK and all AA pilots come out on top. All I'm saying, is what I've seen so far won't do it, so there must be something I'm missing.

What's the point of a great contract with tighter scope, when it only forces your employer to ultimately take most of it back because there's not enough revenue to pay for it ?

Hey, maybe they'll agree to operate at a loss for say 20 years until most of the current pilots retire ?

I suppose that COULD happen, but it's a poor bet.

You sound more like an Aircon employee than someone who flies for eagle.
I don't use terms like "burn the house down" some do, I don't. But I guess that scares you.
I believe in APA. AA can afford to pay us. Your concessionary point of view is what all mgmt wants and hopes for during negotiations.
Even in APA we have a few members with your concessionary opinion.
It is not my job or APA's to keep AA out of BK, they are bent on getting there.
Let's see what the Alaska pilots get for their next contract.
Let's see what happens with Continental's.
And of course, if AA were to pay it's pilots what SWA pilots are paid eaglefly believes that would mean BK for AA.
You hate APA as you think we'll eliminate your job.
Are you at that fork?

Are you F'n nuts? Why on earth would any pilot, Mainline or regional, want to see larger aircraft going to the regional payscales and work rules?
Eagle has 70 seaters already... anything else should go to a mainline payscale. Unless you want to continue to see the few legacy carriers get even smaller than they are, while you slave away at your regional in hopes of going to the "majors" someday... keep that cycle you're talking about going, and there won't be any decent jobs left.

You must be very new at Eagle... you are offering to recreate the exact scenario that got you guys a 16 year no strike contract back in what 97?
They'll just buy, or start another, to whipsaw you with. Granted the language AMR is proposing for regional feed is bogus to the max power.
There will be no change to that language, since APA is not giving AMR anything more than they already have, period. Nothing. If that puts Eagle in a tough position for a while, then so be it... long term it's about keeping planes and jobs on the mainline side.

wow, where to start.... those 100 seaters can just as easily be APA jobs, flown at competative rates.... APA does have pay scales from the F100's (you do know that AA had smaller planes than MD's right?)... So, APA can put the furlough folks into a 100 seater on APA pay scale and work rules.... without making them suffer at Eagle.
I'm sure APA would be happy to negotiate some form of flowthrough/flowback.... since it is obvious that AMR is in the downsize mode, whom do you think this would benefit?
Outsource flying? You do know that YOU are an outsource provider / subcontractor for AA right? The fact that the profits remain at the parent corporation have little to do with the fact that AE is a subcontractor flying what used to be mainline routes for less money, and lousy work rules.

AE is a ride to/from work, that's about it.

You're free to believe anything about me you wish for I am unimportant. AA MAY indeed be able to afford to pay you your price, but I believe they can't afford to pay everyone else the price they'll ask if you get yours and they DEFINATELY won't be able to pay it with a critical revenue source strangled at the same time.

Alaska and Continental don't have the same dynamics (or emotion) that are in play as they are at AA. I've disliked the APA long before the present, but again, emotion isn't fueling my comments.

Economic logic is.

Still no one has demonstrated just how AMR will pay for all this at the same time they'll be forced to eliminate such a huge chunk of revenue.

My job ?

Why that's just a low-wage stepping stone to the glory of where the APA has placed you at. It isn't even worth having, let alone saving, right ?

All you have to do is clue me into how the math works here that ensures your magic carpet ride to utopia with King Lloyd on your shoulders and I'll tip my hat to your success and bow in awe.

Again, hopefully it's a Madoff-style ponzi scheme that is fueling your numbers, becasue mine don't add up.

Well, I think it was your company president that attended some pilot meeting and told them if they wanted to make 100k a year, they should have gotten an MBA and gone into management.

The problem at AMR is they think that everybody with a management title next to their name is worth the 100k plus... after all it's an airline right? and the planes wouldn't fly without them, right?
Face it, there is more waste in the management a supervisory levels at AMR than Carter has/had peanuts.

They need to pay the people doing the work properly, that includes everyone from the ground crews, gate agents, rampers, schedulers, right on up to the the pilots... for without those folks, none of the management people would have any job at all... There is something wrong when the AMR CEO makes 10 times more than his nearest counterpart... do you think that disparity is only at his level? Think again.

Those folks in the crystal palace are robbing the place blind right and left. Why won't they pay people what they're worth? Becuase then they'd have to take a pay cut to what they're actually worth, not what they can get away with....

That's what SHOULD happen, but the time to INSURE that happened is 15 years gone. None of us (him, you or myself) will have ANY say in the matter.

Economics will decide...........er, strike that.

Economics already HAS decided.



Are you sure you're not confusing what you WANT to happen with what is likely to ACTUALLY happen ?

I believe 90-seaters should go to mainline too, but just as the original 50-seaters and then 70-seaters after them didn't, so is history likley to continue it's profit-based repitition. UAL used to fly 60-seat turbprops (Viscount) and 75-seat jets (Caravelle) in the 60's. Most other carriers had eqivelant operations.

What happened ?



???????????

A lot of assumption and altruism here. It's also pretty presumptive to declare every Eagle pilots employment (be it 6 months or 25 years) simply as a "ride to/from work" and "suffering" and should be sacrificed for the interests of another airlines pilots. If you want to declare that for yourself, that's fine. I know 8 years in the right seat is frustrating, but it doesn't mean every pilot here is as miserable.

The APA might be willing to negotiate an agreement offering them maximum protection for minimum benefit to you, but I doubt AMR would be so interested, not becasue they care about Eagle pilots (they most certainly don't), but because they've had enough of transition agreements. Their legal costs alone for the last fiasco overshot any financial benefit.

BTW, many of our routes were never flown by AA and are left overs from years ago when AMR didn't own any of the multiple carriers that now comprise AE. Those carriers were THEIR OWN AIRLINE that simply flew shorter routes in many instances were stand alone operators of those routes BEFORE any relationship with any pirticular major carrier.

A lot of things happened before 2001, you know.