Again, it's all about perspective, isn't it? What if the screwed-blued-tatooed ex-TWA pilots simply believe they're getting their seats/bases/status back? You and your APA buddies never thought about that when you stapled us, did you? Never thought a situation like this would come up, where you've lost any and all support for job action by pilots you discarded and threw on the trash heap, did you? Honestly, do you really expect ex-TWA pilots to join you?

As far as the 'slugfest' you described, it's hard to get over such a bad rap, isn't it? You and APA/AA earned that reputation, and will just have to endure. You know, just listening to you and other hard-line PDP'ers speak about fraternity, solidarity and cooperation in unity makes me want to laugh. It's kind of like Al-Qaeda espousing peaceful coexistence between religions. It sounds great, but we know you're full of $#*%.

As for Super80---point taken. Good post.

I never said I expected support, I was just surprised at the openness of the TWA pilots to become scabs.

The rest of your post is typical sanctimonious BS that is worthy of an Oscar for best actor in a dramatic role. You chose to cling to a sinking ship and demanded others run a DOH employment agency for you as an insurance policy. That didn't happen so now you are bitter. So yes you are right - it is all about perspective.

Boo-hoo.

A perspective from prior trenches . . . . .

Having lived through the UAL pilot strike in 1985 you might be surprised to find out how many who were labeled as "weak" sisters before decision day were the strongest and that a fair number of so-called stalwarts did actually cross.

Perhaps the "strongest" supporter we had in NY, where I was based, was a Captain who was the most vocal at ALPA LEC meetings about not going on strike.

You might also give some consideration to not calling someone a scab so easily. It's a label, IMO, for those who earn it by their actions, not by what someone thinks they'll do.

B757200ER, sorry to burst your bubble but most ex TWA pilots I have recently had the pleasure of flying with are MORE THAN EAGER to jump on the APA bandwagon and participate. None of them (or us) ever talk about what happened, we are all focused on the future as AA pilots and what we can do to regain an industry leading contract. I know you love trying to spread doom and gloom amongst us and trying to divide us, but it won't happen. There may be a few smattering of native AA and ex TWA pilots who choose not to participate, but I assure you they are few and far between.

Your "facts" regarding TWA pilots scabbing to get even are amusing, but sound more like something from a child who was beat up and is desperate to say anything to provoke revenge and disunity. Nice try.

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Re-read my posts above; I never claimed all would sit on sidelines, but merely pointed out to Phallus that he shouldn't expect ex-TWA pilots to participate after their careers were willfully and purposely destroyed.

As far as what you call 'scabbing', and others could view as 'reclaiming their jobs', we'll just have to wait and see what happens, right? I'm not making predictions, just telling you and others that not all share your viewpoint or perspective. That's really what this MB is all about.

NO ONE is trying to or going to "run" anything from "our seats". Never in the history of American Eagle has this been done, nor will it. As a new young pilot with 4 years at Eagle, you've got a lot to learn about AMR, AA and Eagle.

As for wanting more larger aircraft at Eagle, I have to disagree. Actually, many of the senior captains ARE already in the 70-seater and those who aren't don't see the $4.50/hour raise as a big woop-de-do. For your information, if you take a little time and read our contract, you'll see that based on the current landscape of the 90-seat aircraft out there (frequently flown in a mixed configuration 76-seat) an arbitrator would likely only add another 4-5 bucks/hour for these aircraft at Eagle captains and NOTHING for F/O's. From my observation, it's actually most of the F/O's who want MORE aircraft to upgrade into and since another 50 seater will NEVER be ordered or delivered, then that means more 70-seaters.

I can't tell you how many F/O's I've flown with who privately say they want as many new aircraft at Eagle as possible. Publicly they may say something different (is this you ?). It was the F/O's (admittedly an extreme minority) who were the most negative towards the flowbacks as virtually all the captains, neither flew with them or were affected by their presence.

By your own admission, you (and your neophite peers) are experiencing all this for the first time. From the realities of AMR, to the complexities of dealing with the APA and the results that affect Eagle as a company and especially the experiences of it's pilots.

I think it's best to actually LEARN a few things BEFORE taking a position of supposed knowledge and apologizing for what you have little understanding of. Personally, I couldn't care less if another airframe ever hits Eagle property. Of course, if I DO want more airframes, then I'm one of the villians you describe above and am advocating impeading your career. If I DON'T wan't more airframes, then........well, I'm advocating no advancement for junior Eagle pilots and impeading your career.

A senior Eagle pilot CAN'T win with many of the hungry kids who've hit the property in the last few years here with blinders on and banana peels to throw in front of everyone senior to them.

My points were QUESTIONS on just how AMR can give substantial raises to all employee groups (and unavoidable byproduct of an AMR capitulation to the APA on ALL issues) and at the same time apply the similarly strong cost increases or outright elimination to a major percentage of their revenue stream while still remaining competitive and thus viable.

I'm just looking for someone to explain that to me and so far no one has. If it were only about snap-back pay rates for one employee group, perhaps, but that's not what is looming for AMR. This time the equation is much different.

WHY are you worried about what Eagle pilots (senior or not) WANT to fly ?

Have after all these years you've not figured out Eagle pilots have never and WILL never CHOOSE to fly anything for AMR ?

We fly the aircraft we have now, because we were ASSIGNED to fly them by AMR..............we weren't asked.

I agree with you and that's the crux of my comments and argument. AMR is hearing that THIS time emotion is in the driver seat and a large majority of the pilots will (as you say) "burn AMR to the foundation" before another INCH is given up on scope.

That means NO more RJ's, either replacement or addition. So either that flying is taken over by more expensive mainline pilots or shut down.

Fine.

But you do realize that this will cripple AMR's revenue, yes ?

NOW, add all the equal demands of compensation and the inevitable wolfpack mentality from the F/A's and Mechanics who are just as ****ed as the pilots and you'll see that many believe that AMR will have no alternative to fend off this seige with the only method available as by your own admission (and supposedly Lloyd's), there will be no compromises.

Again, from my perspective, you're free to burn at will, but I think you'll end up burning yourselves out of your own tree, but please don't grant power to Eagle pilots that they do not now nor have ever posessed. IF (and that's IF) we end up with a lot more 70-seaters to replace our little "bankruptcy birds" or 90-seaters like a majority of the competition already has, then it will be just like the past............they were ASSIGNED to us, it's just in this case it will be done post BK.

Eagle pilots have no leverage, but economics does. IMO, to win THIS game, you'll have to conquer economics and not Eagle pilots.

That's because your question is one dimentional. You assume that there is only one answer - that AMR can't pay because they say they can't, they are reporting (phony) paper losses, and revenue and costs exist in a vacuum. This is why you guys are stuck in an embarassing 16 year contract.

The fact is, AMR and all other airlines will be making money soon. CAL is up for a contract, WN pilots are asking for more money, UAL is about to be in section 6, the cargo carriers all make way more money, USAirways is about to gain HUGE snapbacks, who knows what the Alaska pilots will end up getting etc..

Your hand wringing incorrectly ASSUMES that other carriers:

1. Will be making substantially less (and this condition would continue for perpetuity)
2. Will not engage in pattern bargaining.
3. Would not PASS US in earnings.

The fact is, even IF APA pilots make more, how much of a competitive impact will it really have? IOW, if it "costs" AMR $100,000,000 more per year for our contract, is that the end of the world? We are talking about a company that just sustained losses in the BILLIONS. Interestingly enough, that even while the company "lost billions", our cash on hand kept growing. Explain that.

As I mentioned earlier, other airlines will most likely close the gap. This will also most likely sooner, rather than later. So even in the above situation, the "extended" losses would not exist. They would either be negated, eclipsed, or minimized.

Lastly, you never mention what AMR will GAIN in this section 6. How much savings will AMR realize in mutually beneficial enhancements to the contract? How much fuel will they save? How much will sick calls go down? How much will our DOT stats improve? IOW, how much will a well compensated and happy employee base contribute to your bottom line?

Why don't you explain to us all why AMR CAN'T afford to pay.

Well, I've re-read your posts two or three times. Forgive me if I misinterpret your position, but it seems to me that you are claiming that many TWA pilots will not honor any job actions conducted by the APA, which will probably include a strike threat. 1), that's just not true - most TWA pilots will participate because they know that is essential in reclaiming THEIR (read: OUR) careers, pay and work rules, and 2), if they DO choose not to participate, yes that would make them scabs.

Spin it any way you want, but I don't care whose career was "destroyed" (your words, not mine - we have plenty of AA pilots whose careers were "destroyed" through years of furlough, too)... anyone who chooses to fly through a strike earns the label "scab", and believe me, the AA/TWA thing will be a picnic compared to what will happen to them if they do scab. And they know it. Now, if they think that is worth "reclaiming their jobs" (once again, your words...) then more power to them. That not only makes them scabs, but dumb as a doornail to boot.

It isn't my responsibility to justify what AMR can or cannot afford, because it isn't me or my employee group asking for.........no, DEMANDING what the APA is. Aside from the fact, you're asking me to slouch closer to what one of your collegues criticisms alleged (that of negotiating for your union and/or contolling their tactics), I work at Eagle and lest you forget, we contol or influence NOTHING at AMR, other than doing the best we can with the scraps we're thrown, so as part of an entity with no influence of this equation, what does it matter ?

You make a whole lot more assumptions in this post then I have in 10. You're assuming :

- That any pirticular airline will be making money "soon".
- That AMR is lying in their financial statements.
- That our 16 year contract is really ONLY a 16 year contract (its amendable every 4 and now is better then many out there, but admittedly an absurd idea pushed by a bent pack of reps and self-interested ALPA national).
- That the only part of the issue is JUST the pilots.
- That I'm "hand wringing" because I want to see AA pilots fail (another clear demonstration of your hatred of Eagle and its pilots that you REPEATEDLY have shown here).

BTW, throwing rocks that have "embarassing" written on them is ill advised. I could pick that rock up and throw it back with the APA's colassal blunder regarding the RJ issue itself and the supposed 67 jets that affiliate regionals could operate (which blossomed to several hundred).....talk about fumbling the ball. Perhaps we could talk a little about that mini-strike and MASSIVE fine as its only byproduct.......I'd call that an interception with AMR running that back for 6 points.

Let's just not and say we did, eh ?

You comments also hinge on the assumptions that AMR really has the money in addition to the others that will surely be making more. But, that seems immaterial. IMO, it's not a matter of IF AMR can pay, but will they feel they have to, want to and can they justify an uncompetitive increase like that. If they were, don't you think they'd be more aggressive to wrap this up ASAP to "realize the savings" you claim would surely be the result ?

To me, these assumptions are not adding up and that's all I'm saying. It seems to me you really shouldn't be worried, because AA pilots will get huge raises, benefits will improve dramatically, all the other unions will get theirs (which they'll demand and have the leverage as well) and those awful RJ's will be a distant memory in 5-7 years, right ?

So, what's the problem ?

Utopia is just around the corner now and certainly a little ol' Eagle pilot who has no clue isn't a threat. The money's there, AMR will not only hand it out but be HAPPY to do that because of all the wonderful savings and everyone will go hand-in-hand to the RJ burning bonfire with weenies and marshmellows for all in the process.

I guess my only question to you now is; once Eagle, its evil pilots and all their RJ's are gone, what excuse will you have to continue kicking your cat ?