Airline Pilot Central Forums - Question for AA73 and 7576FO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aa73 (Post 579236)

Do NOT even go there, ER. Totally different animal, not even REMOTELY close to scab definition. When TWA bought Ozark and they furloughed Ozark pilots out of seniority, and you were flying former OZ aircraft out of the former OZ hub on former OZ routes, what did that make YOU? Not a scab, no. Just a pilot flying newly acquired routes by your employer. I would strongly suggest YOU review the definition of a scab.

Why did they even bother joining APA, if they're not going to join the fight?

Since I was a sophomore in college in '86 when TWA merged with Ozark, I wasn't even affected.

And, 20 OZ pilots got furloughed a short time, since Icahn was playing politics with 2 AOCs; unfortunately they got caught in the crossfire. But you need to understand this: TWA/Ozark was a Date-of-Hire integration, and OZ pilots could bid 747/767/L1011 along with TWA bases. In the TWA/AA 'un'integration, 60% of TWA's pilots were stapled to the bottom of the entire list, all TWA pilots were forced/fenced into STL and all TWA pilots were fenced off 777/A300/MD11/737/F100.

Totally different transaction, with totally different methodology and completely different outcome.

It sort of reminds me of that patronizing BS slogan that AA came out with after buying TWA: "Two Great Airlines---One Great Future".

They forgot to add the words --- "For Them" at the end. (That's you).

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Rated (Post 579388)

My response was in reference to your statement of "furloughing OZ pilots out of seniority order." No, they weren't scabs. They also had a say in their integration...one they could have forced to arbitration.

X

Thank you. I'm not interested in the integration part, as I fully know they got DOH. You and ER, however, just love to include that no matter what the conversation is about. I've stated over and over again that ours should have gone to arbitration, as that would have been the fairest way. But nobody called me and asked my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B757200ER (Post 579444)

ER,

You need to stop trying to "teach me" the results of past integrations - I fully know all the details - and answer the question I have for you, in reference to what you said a few posts ago regarding scabbing. Here it is, once again: If an airline acquires another airline and its routes/equipment, are the pilots who fly the new routes/equipment "scabs" in your view? Even if the previous airline's pilots are on the streets? (a la Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, Midway, etc etc etc)?

Please stick to the topic. You don't need to be reminding me, for the thousandth time, your highly dramatized version of what happened to your airline. We know, ad nauseum. I've acknowledged more than once in the past that we could have done a better job. For some reason that does not satisfy you.

So please, stop deviating from the subject and answer the question. Your interpretation of "scabbing" is worrisome. And I'm also waiting for your answer to the question, "why did so many TWA pilots join APA if you claim they're not going to support APA's fight for a better contract?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa73 (Post 579538)

You need to stop trying to "teach me" the results of past integrations and answer the question I have for you, in reference to what you said a few posts ago regarding scabbing. Here it is, once again: If an airline acquires another airline and its routes/equipment, are the pilots who fly the new routes/equipment "scabs" in your view? So please, stop deviating from the subject and answer the question. Your interpretation of "scabbing" is worrisome. And I'm also waiting for your answer to the question, "why did so many TWA pilots join APA if you claim they're not going to support APA's fight for a better contract?"

Not all the pilots joined the Al-Qaeda (scuze me, Allied) Pilots Association. They knew joining a group hell-bent on destroying their careers and any future they'd ever have was pointless. Out of the 600 TWA pilots left at AA, I would bet less than half are even members.

My example to you was in reference to you calling TWA pilots 'scabs' if they refuse to participate in your childish CHAOS/ASH charade. Then, threatening anyone who doesn't honor your job action and calling them stupid.
And, I simply related to you and Phallus (who stated his 'sources' above), that counting on ex-TWA types to support APA job action was laughable. I merely pointed out to you that since you were working in STL while 1500 TWA pilots were furloughed, and you were gallantly striking up the 'unity' band towards getting a contract, that not all ex-TWA pilots would agree with you, support you or even come close to having your viewpoint on matters. I truly, honestly think AA and APA are headed for a nasty collision, and there will be casualties. Instead of you and Phallus worrying about the 300 or so ex-TWA pilot non-members at AA, you'd be better served by asking the senior 2000 AA Captains what their plans are if the crap hits the fan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B757200ER (Post 579580)

They knew joining a group hell-bent on destroying their careers and any future they'd ever have was pointless.

Yes.... "hell bent on destroying their careers....."

How did you find out? When I think back, now I remember. While up at cruise altitude, we would sit and plot and scheme about how to destroy the TWA pilots careers. When we would land, there would be frequent APA meetings held in nearby caves lit by torches with the membership chanting spells.

Yes - it is all coming back to me now Mr. Drama Queen.....

My guess is that strong indications of bankruptcy or A Fund funding problems will result in 1500-2000 senior guys retiring immediately, like Delta. And by the time the company imposes FAA max on flying hours, more days at work, and more productivity, it might be a wash on the furloughs it otherwise might have caused.

If AA is able to modify the contract in bankruptcy, I'd say that all the special privileges for ex-TWA pilots will be revoked and St Louis pseudo-base will no longer be a base. Even after all these years and a billion dollars down the rathole, TWA legacy costs still remain. A billion dollars would have bought a lot of new fuel efficient airplanes.

And I'll say it again, TWA pilots got a good deal considering what the APA KNEW was going to happen, i.e. that any growth that TWA was supposidly bringing would evaporate and APA pilots would be stuck with a bunch of whiners. If TWA pilots thought it was such a bad deal they should have refused the deal and taken their chances on their own.

The incompetence of TWA management and ALPA destroyed your career, not the American Airlines pilots.

And yes, pilot, TWA or otherwise, that flies legally struck work is a scab. There's no special exception for TWA pilots on that count either.

At STL, the number of ex-TWA non-APA members is about 22%, not half as ER would like to believe and I don't believe that even the non-members would scab. If I were a senior TWA guy and I smelled a job action with the possibility of a bankruptcy, I'd retire and take the retirement money that the APA got me in their contract and run for the nearest exit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B757200ER (Post 579580)

Actually, ER, much to your chagrin, we have over 60% membership from the TWA ranks, and it grows with every recall class. So, it appears that our unity drive actually worked for pilots with a little more foresight and common sense than yourself. I see that you would take immense pleasure in seeing us fail in getting an industry leading contract (which benefits everyone in the industry.) You see, you're the only one on these boards who label our job actions "childish" - everyone else in the industry is applauding us for taking a stand. You seem to be against us just out of spite, even though an industry leading contract would probably benefit you and whatever airline you work for.

Of course there will be a nasty collision, that is what contract negotiations is about. Otherwise AMR management will have us for lunch. But the fact remains that ANY pilot, TWA or native, who doesn't support an APA strike will be labeled a scab and that makes him more than stupid in my book - especially if he does it out of revenge. It appears you would fall in this category, according to your anti-labor comments.

Oh, those senior 2000 AA captains? I fly with them regularly on the 767 out of NY. They will not hesitate to shut this place down. And the few TWA pilots who brag about scabbing? No worries - Supp CC will be the least of their worries when all is set and done. They're gonna wish they got furloughed.

So, bottom line - don't call me a scab just because my airline bought the scraps of yours and took over the flying and routes. If anyone is showing scab like behavior here, I'd say it's you, with your anti-labor comments.

No worries, ER... we will prevail. And I'm gonna laugh like a mofo when you get all red faced and upset when we get the contract we deserve, just like the playground kid who doesn't get his way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 579108)

NO ONE is trying to or going to "run" anything from "our seats". Never in the history of American Eagle has this been done, nor will it. As a new young pilot with 4 years at Eagle, you've got a lot to learn about AMR, AA and Eagle.

As for wanting more larger aircraft at Eagle, I have to disagree. Actually, many of the senior captains ARE already in the 70-seater and those who aren't don't see the $4.50/hour raise as a big woop-de-do. For your information, if you take a little time and read our contract, you'll see that based on the current landscape of the 90-seat aircraft out there (frequently flown in a mixed configuration 76-seat) an arbitrator would likely only add another 4-5 bucks/hour for these aircraft at Eagle captains and NOTHING for F/O's. From my observation, it's actually most of the F/O's who want MORE aircraft to upgrade into and since another 50 seater will NEVER be ordered or delivered, then that means more 70-seaters.

I can't tell you how many F/O's I've flown with who privately say they want as many new aircraft at Eagle as possible. Publicly they may say something different (is this you ?). It was the F/O's (admittedly an extreme minority) who were the most negative towards the flowbacks as virtually all the captains, neither flew with them or were affected by their presence.

By your own admission, you (and your neophite peers) are experiencing all this for the first time. From the realities of AMR, to the complexities of dealing with the APA and the results that affect Eagle as a company and especially the experiences of it's pilots.

I think it's best to actually LEARN a few things BEFORE taking a position of supposed knowledge and apologizing for what you have little understanding of. Personally, I couldn't care less if another airframe ever hits Eagle property. Of course, if I DO want more airframes, then I'm one of the villians you describe above and am advocating impeading your career. If I DON'T wan't more airframes, then........well, I'm advocating no advancement for junior Eagle pilots and impeading your career.

A senior Eagle pilot CAN'T win with many of the hungry kids who've hit the property in the last few years here with blinders on and banana peels to throw in front of everyone senior to them.

My points were QUESTIONS on just how AMR can give substantial raises to all employee groups (and unavoidable byproduct of an AMR capitulation to the APA on ALL issues) and at the same time apply the similarly strong cost increases or outright elimination to a major percentage of their revenue stream while still remaining competitive and thus viable.

I'm just looking for someone to explain that to me and so far no one has. If it were only about snap-back pay rates for one employee group, perhaps, but that's not what is looming for AMR. This time the equation is much different.

Eaglefly I don’t know what to say to you. You are the prime example of 300lbs of chewed bubble gum. You don’t even make sense. Yes all Eagle FO’s want airplanes it is no secret. But NO MORE RJ’s!!!!!! You have been sitting in your CA seat to long to even know what is going on in the right seat. We FO’s would love to have the Saabs back more ATR’s or even B1900 something to give us left seat time to move out of eagle.
Oh and all the senior CA’s are not in the CRJ. Most are in the EMB for the better schedules. Do you really work at eagle?
Eaglefly fails to comprehend is that the newer pilots have seen what RJ have done to our career. Eaglefly how long is the upgrade at eagle? Why is it 9+ years to get in the ATR? I know you’re not concerned with my career as long as you don’t lose your CA seat. But what is good for you is not good for all of us!
As you say the extreme minority of FO’s who hated flowbacks have moved on to the Majors.
You tell me to learn my history. I tell you to learn or use common sense!

To the APA/AA guys

Do you know what is going on at United? This was from another post but what is APA doing to stop AMR from doing this?

Clipping union's wings -- chicagotribune.com

-From The Article-

United's pilots have the contractual right to handle its flying. But one exception to this rule, negotiated during United's three-year bankruptcy, applies to joint ventures formed by United and Star Alliance partners, such as Aer Lingus.

And British Airways last year spun off OpenSkies, a subsidiary that uses new hires rather than unionized employees to man its all-business-class flights between New York and Paris and Amsterdam.

American Airlines pilots, who also are embroiled in contract talks, are watching the new ventures with concern.

"It does look like carriers are probing at ways to get around unionized pilots on their seniority lists," said Gregg Overman, spokesman for the union. "Clearly, we have huge problems with that."

Why is it that all threads regarding AMR devolve into someone whining about TWA? I don't seem to hear as much from Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am guys.

TWA got screwed by TWA. I've known quite a few guys who bailed from TWA to AA in the last year of its existence. Now why would they do that if it was a foregone conclusion that it would rise from its self-imposed ashes?