Oh, in my post above, the numbers listed are the most junior pilot in that category, if it isn't obvious. :-)

What does the "B" and "R" stand for after the A/C type?

Bidder (LOT) and Reserve Bidder.

B = Blockholder (line holder)

R = Reserve

Nu

Delta #'s
 

iaflyer...
Great info. Any chance that you could attach some date of hire #'s to the seniortiy #'s??? For those of us on the outside looking in. Thanks!

They have taken the DOH's off of the seniority list to lessen the sting.

It fluctuates, but overall, a NWA guy is slotted in with a DAL guy hired a year to a year and a half later. There are some pockets the other way...a bud of mine was a late 95 hire and got slotted before 91 DAL hires, and some of the guys hired in late 2000/01 got slammed behind 07 DAL hires.

Nu

not the best choice of words.

....good one...how about this: "Some of the NW 2000-01 hires were delicately, and lovingly placed in equal seniority with some DL 2007 hires, while some 1995 NW hires were tenderly, and affectionately placed with some DL 1991 hires....resulting in a deeply satisfying union of brotherly love..."

..."Then, in a frenzy of egalitarian compassion, all of the 1985 DL hires were placed in equal seniority with the NW 1979 hires....resulting in a spontaneous, joyful rendition by the 12,000 unified members of the Delta Tabernacle Choir of the 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Handel's 'Messiah'"....

This would have been a better answer to the question posed (your adjectives seem a little melodramatic) :

Grant123,
The following is what was published by the merger committee to explain the methodology after the arbitration ran its full course. In the arbitration panel's opinion it attempts to provide the benefit of upcoming retirements for FNWA pilots and also makes every effort to preserve a pilot's "bidding ability"(aka relative seniority) from pre-merger list and post-merger list. There are areas of the seniority list that fluctuate considerably in Date of Hire relativity due to the fact that DAL and NWA did not hire at the same time or at the same rate over the last 25 years.

No sense stirring the pudding. Hence I'm deleting this post and looking forward to the day when I wish all of you the best at Delta.

There were 61 words in that post...which was not to your liking?

Giving the guy the methodology tells him nothing. Fact of the matter is that there was some variation in the slotting. Some made out, some didn't and some were about par....on day one.

Fact is that, yes, some did very well, such as my friend who went in front of DAL pilots hired 4 years earlier. Some did considerably worse, such as friends who were hired in 01, that wound up behind 2007 DAL hires. And yes, the group of DAL guys in 08 that got stapled to the bottom.

My point was that ON AVERAGE, the typical NWA guy is paired with a DAL guy hired a year to a year and half after him.

It is what it is...people need to stop being uncomfortable around it.

Nu

Wow, that was a quick edit!...pre-merger status was premerger stovepipe (straight seniority order) status. If, in your case, you were enjoying flying the ER or dom. 767 or something better than M88B as a relative new hire, then you were flying it "out of seniority order" and after the merger guess what?...no windfalls here, and no bad deals either...neutral...you are still flying something "out of seniority order"....only now you'll have hundreds of DC9 and A320 B's descending out of the blizzards of the frozen north who are hungrier than bi't'ch wolves at whelping time for the genteel life of a landed Southern Gentleman....sipping mint juleps on the front verandah, and occassionally dropping in to Paris or London for some shopping...

Now, if you haven't been flying something out of seniority then...nevermind...it was just a wild guess on my part.

Nu's choice of words might seem, to a few slightly curious, -to imply that it is OK for a 91' hire to be placed behind a 95' hire, but "not so OK" for a 01' hire to be "slammed behind" a 07' hire......Nu managed to cherry-pick the 91' vs. 95' controversy, as that is to my knowledge the only place on the whole seniority list where a significant block of people (150-200?) are inverted in seniority DOH in favor of NW. (Correct me if I am wrong, Nu.) I would say the average DOH difference is more like 2-3 years overall.

And Bucking, you are right, this is a hypersensitive 900 lb. gorilla, and as long as he is behind bars (or we are behind bars) ...it is hard to resist teasing him every once in a while...;)

All this (the above posts) has been sort of the "long answer" to your question!

I just hope we can all still play nice after the first joint AE. ;) :D

i like beer fwiw

The Dude abides all.

Almost made me loose my Dudeness.

I am sure that many are going to be irked as we see two years of AEs to fix this the way they want. By then we will all be irritated, just in time for C2012.

Sorry Bucking, not trying to make you lose your Dudeness. I respect the institution of Dudedness. And through all of my undudeifferous remarks I'm really trying to say, as Nu says it so well...."some got a good deal, some got a bad deal"....but only "on paper" so far. There is a whole lot of dust that is going to have to settle before those good deals and bad deals are actualized...no use crying over spilt eggs until youv'e counted the hatched chickens that have passed under the bridge.

Heyas Wiggy,

You are correct. There are some inversions throughout the whole list. I didn't think I was implying anything. As some have gone to lengths to point out, the SLI MUST be fair because that's what the arbitrator decided...even though that might not be true in micro-segments of the list.

Besides that one segment, there are scattered examples of the inversion throughout the list. Some argued quite voicerferously that DOH didn't matter, so, really, no one should be toruqed at all that 95 guys wound in front of 91 guys, or 01 guys behind 07 hires...right?

With that said, the SLI started out as an ok deal for the DAL side, but that was assuming a constant fleet. I'm now starting to see the SLI as an extremely bad deal for the DAL side. RA seems intent on parking a healthy majority of the fNWA fleet, but the whole bunch of NWA guys will be parked on the list no matter what.

Bummer, but I keep my job. It is what it is...

Nu

Sounds about like what happend with PA.

Yeah, I suppose that's right, in a sense. It might seem counterintuitive that the pilot group who is slated to eventually lose a significant portion of their fleet (742s, DC9s) and will inevitably be displaced is the one with the "better deal". But how bad can it be to be displaced from Alaska (esp. in the winter) or displaced off the '-9 where the only options involve an upgrade to bigger and better paying equipment? I would caution those who look at their current relative seniority vs. equipt. held either north or south and drool or cry. After SOC, for every choice job that a fNW guy tries to bid, there are on average 1.4 fDL guys of equal seniority bidding for the same thing. (ex-747, 777) They need to publish a combined "stovepipe" list matching up pilots with equipment in seniority order to get an accurate picture of where the chips will fall.

That was done a few months ago. I know that the DAL proposal had it. I am not sure if DAL will publish what you want. Just look at the category lists.

Nu,

That is why we, on the DAL South list, said that this is going to be good for the fNWA guys and bad for us. This is not crystal ball stuff, this is a history lesson. How many former Pan Am aircraft do we still have? How many former Western aircraft? Answer none. DAL has a history of buying something then taking it apart and closing the bases that came with it.

After SOC, I imagine we are going to be the worlds largest commuter, as in pilots commuting to work, airline. There is no telling where aircraft are going to end up. But we will have displacements and then we will see how many fNWA guys are complaining when they go from commuting to work as an A320B in DTW to commuting to work at ATL as a 75/76B.

It is fact that the guys in route management do not care about the cost to the families either. It is something that needs to be done, and the are aware that we will get tossed about. It is just not something that is going to make them pause or stop from executing their plan.

Pack a big suitcase. It will be less of a shock to the NWAers, lots of DAL guys do not commute.
I am getting ready to move from ATL. For the next few years flexibility is key.

Not all the Dal-N guys are going to be happy with a displacement. A lot of the ANC folks live there and like it. Also as the -200 flying goes away most of these guys will all go to lower paying equipment. As for me I may get bumped from the -400 and the only position that pays equal or better that I can hold is a -9, which is way too much work for me...... I am not complaining but rather pointing out that all is not roses on our side either.

Long term leave request sitting on the hard drive. Resignation letter is in the same directory. Money's in the bank & everything is paid for. Wife and family not only on board, they insist.

I changed careers to a profession that pays less because I like flying. I never applied to Northwest Airlines, had no interest in flying for them and would have remained at a regional if NWA were the other choice. If significantly re-routed, I'll squawk 1200 and continue VFR. You can do that under part 91.

I'm going to have to learn to fly the Falcon, but finding room for the crew bags isn't a problem and the Jepps are left in the closet too. Last time I flew corporate we sometimes went from the jet to a helicopter, making the ride to downtown a lot more fun than the crew van. Four day Type at Flight Safety doesn't sound very difficult.

How's that for flexibility?

I love Delta and enjoy working here. However, am I willing to take a pay cut and move 1,000 miles so someone else can shop my job? eh' no thanks.

The equation is simple... If result is > or = status quo = no changes. If result < Status Quo = Formal Leave Request. If Leave denied then Resignation + ((ALPA can KMA for outsourcing our Captain gigs) * 2).

Think your wife might like Dallas, or Savannah? If the economy turns around the G250 and 650 should be hot products.

Thats exactly why we havent moved yet. We're waiting for the dust to semi-settle before we even think about it. In the meantime we are happy with where we are and commuting will continue ;)

If I was Delta-N or Delta-S, and lived in FL, I'd be praying for BOS to open up and real keen on waiting to see what moves into DTW and NYC before I make a move for heavy equipment in ATL. Sure, its a shorter commuting flight but its also a popular one with no seats in the back and a guaranteed battle for the jumpseat. If you're not going to hold commutable lines, why bother with ATL? If you can hold 765 NYC and hold good lines in DTW with more growth in the size of aircraft operated out of there (i.e. more 7ERs), then why commute to reserve or to the bottom of ATL?

I think we need to get to SOC and then really see what happens. Commuters have a nack for finding the path with least resistance. I've been both and right now I don't fear as much as I enjoy what I have now. If I have to commute, I have to commute but doing it at Delta beats the years of commuting I did with no CASS, no seats, no priority, no commutable trips and a "bloated" fifth year $27,000 a year pay unable to waste money on a crashpad... hello lazy boy. But I've also slept ontop of A/C vents in EWR when there was no room in the inn, crew room or baggage room and I've bathed many a time in the airport sink. Commuting on Delta was significantly better.

You are the type of guy who will always say this and never do a thing but complain and b!tch. Always burn off the ear of some FNWA guy about how good it was before the merger. I really do hope you p!ss off, it will be better for the rest of us.

One question, would NWA as a stand alone have retired this equipment without a replacement? The answer, no.

I am really glad we added Northwest's routes and Northwest's pilots. We are a stronger company together than we were separately. Most Delta pilots I know feel the same way. I was hired shortly after the Western merger and it was the biggest period of growth at Delta ever. My guess is a year from now, this company will take off. Don't let the haters get you down.

Yeah, that's exactly what they said on the 11th floor of my office building, then I went and flew for the airlines. They thought I was absolutely nuts. My former employer subsequently imploded during this financial downturn and Delta's doing OK. Who'd have thought it?

If the deal starts to stink, I'll find a better deal. The key is flexibility. Been able to do some cool stuff as a result of not getting locked in. Not putting down anyone who chooses to stay... and no, I'd never mention it to a FDAL or FNWA guy on a trip, unless there was something positive to say for both of us, like the $25,000 in Delta stock sitting in the 401K, that was nice.

My point was, I'm not complaining, I'm planning for contingencies should they be necessary to preserve quality of life.

If I was as young as ACL or Superpilot the math would be a lot different due to attrition. However, if over 40 there is not nearly as much time to make up for the move and the displacement that results from all the people left out of position by an arbitration award that failed to provide any deference to status quo.

One question, what is the relevance of NW as a stand alone? The answer, none. As for the hypothetical NW stand alone, hypothetically the 742s and cargo were not making money, why would they have kept it stand alone but not merged? As shown in the arbitration briefs, the DC-9s were in rapid draw-down and RJ's were replacing that flying in many markets.....but even all that is beside the point....the question was, since it appears there will be (according to Nu) a draw-down in fNWA equipment, is that a "good deal" for you, and a bad deal for fDL?

Heyas Crunch,

True, and I think our MEC would have had an easier time re-absorbing Compass than whatever bizzare, managment inspired drive the DAL MEC seems to be taking to outsource our jobs in the quest to "improve the bottom line".

The junior guys at either airline were screwed no matter what. That was inate in the deal. The only question was how many, and in what proportion. IMHO, and this is only MY opinion, that a number of junior fNWA guys got screwed a little bit, but a smaller number of junior fDAL got screwed a LOT. Does it balance? Maybe, but that's for each individual to decide.

Look, I didn't intend this thread to go bat-sh!t. I didn't mean to imply anything about who landed where on the list, other than it is what it is.

With that said, you have to understand that DAL/NWA is committed now to getting SOC as FAST as possible. It HAS to happen to stem the bleeding. The first AE after that will be chaos, and there are going to be LOTS of displacements. Unless you are uber senior in categoy, you are at risk.

As ACL pointed out, most fNWA guys are used to commuting, base changes and general mayhem. They'll take everything in stride because that's the way it ALWAYS has been for us.

OTOH, the fDAL guys are the ones who are used to stability and contentment...heck, I saw one fDAL guy on the webboard the other day complain about where the 10-7 page was going to be put, and people are getting bent out of shape over one word in the pushback verbage. If little things like that tweaks someone, imagine what the BIG changes are going to do, especially AFTER SOC, when the REAL changes are going to take place.

This is a public service announcement for the DAL guys...times have changed and the new order is here...hang on for the ride. The fNWA guys are happy to help, but man, you have to ask.

Nu

Heyas Wiggy,

The drawdown was temporary, and the cap on the number of RJs was solid. NWA was in talks about the C-series replacement for the mainline, not to mention what ever deal could have been struck with Boeing with regards to the 787. There's no telling where that would have gone. We'll never know, now.

Likewise, the pulldown the fNWA metal is only a rumor, and they have been flying fast and furious lately, as I have also heard that all of the domestic 767 lift is slated for the same drawdown.

Throw in a potential aquisition by SWA of either Sun Country or Alaska, and you have the makings of a whole new ball game.

Nu

Both of them? :rolleyes:

Lately they have been backfilling with 767 list. The other day I was sent home because a 767-400 was needed to cover the RT. Insufficient seats on the 767-300 that was scheduled.

FWIW;
DAL is looking at a 100 seat jet for mainline. It is fact, and they know they need it sooner than later. They may decide to continue to sit on their hand like they have for the past five years, but the guys in route know that this RJ fix is killing them. Watch for significant pull down of the DCI fleet as soon as the contracts expire, and a new mainline platform can be found.
As for the NWA pull down effecting everyone. I hate to say it but no amount of complaining will change it. We are a WE not a them or us. We will all take the pain. That is why it is all being done after SOC. There is a point to that.
A lot of this stuff will be absorbed with new metal that is announced and newer metal that is not announced. Suffice to say we got lots of jets coming so just wait. We need the economy to truly turn around before the publicly ink deals for billions of dollars in jets.
As for the 767. There is strong talk of parking the GE 767-300 domestic birds. No time frame has been given but they will not be around like the ER's will be. They are looking at 20 years for those. They are also looking at parking the 32 5500 series 757's. That probably will come in the next three years, but there will be metal and mergers to deal with at that. (Hope the merger does not happen and with SWA playing games it might not but who knows) The 30 and 40 series 9's will be parked.
Now what replaces it? There are a lot of options. The deal of the day is the 90's and there are a lot of them to be had. The acquisition process for each of these is time consuming so to raise the fleet to 35 total and then get board approval for more will take time. The 100 seat jet is probably a few years away. I say 2012 to 2013 to commensurate with the 9 going to VCV. You also have a few 73N's that we have options for that MAY get exercised, but that is not a first or second option. In fact, at this time they do not want any more. (See if that lasts). Airbus is making some very good offers for 320's and 330's. I am sure if we wanted four engines they would do that too. Boeing is working with the 787-800 issue and I would expect to see an answer on that after SOC. Maybe before, but it depends on the lawyers. There will probably be 777-300's here before the end of 2010 to start replacing or augmenting the 744 lift.
In essence a lot is going to happen in the next four to six years.
As for bases, and fleet movement. A lot of people that are new to DAL are for the first time dealing with the prospect of getting booted out of a base. Some of us are not. Problem is that it is uncharted water for many folks. They will get through it, but they have to point of reference. My advice is to bid a jet that gives you the QOL of life you want, no matter what the base is. After 2012 there are going to be retirements that will open a lot of doors. We are not talking about the rest of your DAL career, only the next four to six years. It really is not a lot of time. It is less time than many of your brethren were on the street.

As for me Bar, if mid 30's is young what does the mid 20's equate too? You had a career change. I am sure that it will be better than people's worst fears.
On a good note, the plan is changing and for the better. Wait and see, I am sure it will change again in six weeks. ;)

And yes, we have been upping a/c size a lot of flights as of late. Loads are real good.