johnso29

Capturing it would be beneficial to not only the pilot group, but also management. By bringing it to mainline they eliminate the cost of flowbacks. They also keep it a junior airplane at mainline, which means it can have a lower cost then when outsourced.

It is certainly worth the sacrafice, & while all 70+ seat flying may not be possible to recapture, some may be closer then we know.

dojetdriver

I guess it could depend on A LOT of factors. Bring the "small jets" to mainline, ON A MAIN LINE WORK RULES AND CONTRACT. What happens to the cost?

Also, if the "small jets" are going to brought over to mainline, with the potential of a the mainline pilots being flowed down, you can bet they are going to what a better pay scale. Again, what happens to the costs then?

acl65pilot

Regionals are not as cheap as you think. It is doable even at 140 an hr.

dojetdriver

True, but you have to look beyond just the hourly rate. What if the most expensive "regionals" had DAL's work rules, as well as $140/hr? Staffing, along with the increased pay would go through the roof.

acl65pilot

As much as management wants you think it is about your pay, fact is that pilots are a small portion of the cost. Ego is what drives a lot of that. If you look at a lot of rates out there, our 195 rate that is the PWA is commensurate with everyone else.
Everyone seems to look at year 12. IMHO there will be a few of those on the jet but most will be well below that. Even more so going forward. Forward thinking is what is changing this equation. Long term it is a lot cheaper to in source that outsource. Why? The ton of hiring that is needed in the future. I could get in to specifics but when you cost it out, it is actually zero sum to slightly ahead to have mainline fly them. Part of it is if you would try to reduce mainline bennies anymore it his the negative trend line, and actually works against lowering cost.

Lighteningspeed

This is very true. It's not just about the hourly rate, which by the way is way lower than $140/hr for most senior regional pilots even with 20 year seniority. For example a 25 year senior CRJ900 CA at XJ tops out at around $97/hr. It's also about work rules, rest and duty requirements like min day etc, trip guaranty/duty rig, dead head pay, trip cancellation pay, minimum overnight rest, and staffing requirements among others. In all of these listed above, DAL is superior to all regionals that I am aware of, therefore, the cost will be considerably higher in the end. This is one of the reasons I doubt DAL management will go for it.

RJSAviator76

Dojet... are you familiar with UAL's domestic work ru... I mean FAR's?

Let me put it this way... you bite the bullet and capture the flying, very much like Mesa did to end Freedom, and TSA didn't so GoJet flourished. Then in a few years, you start working on improving on things.

Sacrifice now for a long-term reward.

Just a thought...

dojetdriver

I don't disbelieve that. But to tell you the truth, I'd have to see the no crap, non company skewed, non MEC skewed legitimate numbers before I DID believe it. Good luck with that. How are you measuring costs? Is it by block hour, per departure, or CASM? The lower cost "regionals" have CASM that are pretty close to what mainline has gotten theirs down to. More expensive, but not by much. Sorry, but throw the higher pay rate as well as work rules in there, what's going to happen?

You say the 190 rate is commensurate with everybody else. Take a look at JB's new rate for that fleet type. How happy do you think a mainline carrier would be flying that equipment, or rather how happy would the displaced former "narrow body pilot" be flying that equipment for LESS than an LCC carrier does it? I know you been around long enough to know how well that kind of stuff went over in the post 9/11 concession era.

You also talk about the focus on year 12, but then mention the forward thinking long term. Well, what's going to happen when you have guys camping out on that equipment type to the 12 year scale? Those aircraft at the regional level weren't really designed for that cost scenario, just like the 50 seaters weren't. They also weren't designed around mainline work rules to be cost effective either.

Take a look at Continental-COEX, DAL-COMAIR-ASA, and AA/AE. Although not fully "integrated" companies so to speak, by owning them they could somewhat control their cost. Later, it became a liability. If fuel skyrockets again, or rather DOES skyrocket again, those "small jets" are going to become cost ineffective, again. When the poop hit the fan, CAL spun off COEX for money, DAL spun off ASA for money, it's been rumored AA had the same plans for AE, time will tell.

You also have to throw in a cost that can't really be measured, but is a factor. The ability of the legacy to constantly play off the "regionals" to reduce costs. I don't think it will happen on the scale it did during the BK's, but I don't think that situation is completely over.

Don't get me wrong, and don't draw some inaccurate conclusion about me. I WANT the flying/airplanes to be at mainline. But just like there are arguments for it, there are plenty against it. You can label me a pessimist if you choose. Sadly, with this landscape we've seen and management becoming stronger and labor becoming weaker, it may be more the reality.

And now for something completely different;

Well, I worked for a UAX carrier pre 9/11, and got to see how they screwed them each over in the BK, what are you getting at?

Um.....what?

Interesting, ask the SkyWest guys how well that worked out when they agreed to 70/90 equipment for 50 seat rates. When SKW FINALLY got that situation straightened out, how did it end up for them? I wonder if that surrender was worth the pay freeze/concession?

Or try this example, how LONG did the DAL MEC and managment haggle over a pay rate when the 767-400 showed up? yep, they FINALLY got a decent one, but it wasn't too quickly if I remember correctly.

I wonder how many people in this career went by those words, and are STILL waiting for the "long term reward".

Just a thought.......

acl65pilot

There will always be some. But remember that it will be a junior jet by in large, where as at a regional like EV it is at the top end of the pay scale.
Also, JB rates are less than ours till year eight. Add another 12% to our rates over the next three years as well. Our 195 rate in 2012 is 136 an hr. That is four dollars less than what the 88 was paying in 2007.
It is more than what a 777 FO rate is today. The CASM (real not what is reported due to margins and lease payment et al), the costing out of DCI is a dirty little secret is actually a tad more than what it would cost to be here.
Also if you have access to the DAL retirement matrix, it will be a lot cheaper to put these jet here than to have the other issues associated with rampant hiring.
The MEC does not have new number. They need to do them. DCI dealing with Legacy costs. One way that management can reduce these costs is to have a bi-lateral flow. The other is to make mainline attractive enough for the senior DCI pilots to jump over to mainline. The latter works a lot better for management.

I will tell you this. DCI is going to get hammered in the next three to five year. It is not a slap that the pilot. It is the business model. It is deal. Unless the regionals accept major changes to their contracts, they will be different animals in the coming years.

dojetdriver

Acl65pilot, note I edited some numbers as I received newer info, still the same debate though.


Going by the APC JB 190 rate, it's higher than the DAL PWA 195 document I have for EVERY year. The 2009 DAL rate I have for the 195 is 122ish, is it not? The JB is 143. Every JB year of longevity is higher than DAL's current 2009 in the CA rate, is it not?. DAL's 2012 195 rate is similar to JB's CURRENT 190 rate, what do you think JB's 2012 rate will be?

What is the cheaper cost associated with funding a retirement, for those that still have it? Is funding retirement for a pilot on a mainline contract (that still has it) cheaper than what most regionals have?

This is going to be a really basic question, but with the last few years, it kind of has a place. Now, I don't give airline management too much credit. But when you look at it over the last couple years, they have done one heck of a bang up job at reducing costs and making this industry "cheaper". At the expense of our careers, of course. With all the cost cutting they've done, either through BK, legal means or whatever else, if it is truly cheaper to have the "small jets" at mainline, how come they haven't done it yet?

They've already taken it pretty hard, I don't want to see what they have yet in store for them.