Commuting and Irresponsibility
06-19-2009, 11:17 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 58
Commuting and Irresponsibility
Last night I flew the redeye from LAX-IAD and had a jumpseater who had to ride in the cockpit. According to him, his duty day was to begin the day of our arrival at 0800 and not end until 2200. We arrived in Dulles at 0600. What is wrong with this picture? It is a commuting strategy that I have been seeing more and more the past couple years - commute on a redeye to fly the day of arrival. When did this become acceptable? Is it responsible? Is it professional?
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
06-19-2009, 12:03 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by cactusdog16
Last night I flew the redeye from LAX-IAD and had a jumpseater who had to ride in the cockpit. According to him, his duty day was to begin the day of our arrival at 0800 and not end until 2200. We arrived in Dulles at 0600. What is wrong with this picture? It is a commuting strategy that I have been seeing more and more the past couple years - commute on a redeye to fly the day of arrival. When did this become acceptable? Is it responsible? Is it professional?
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
06-19-2009, 12:26 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
Management also made a choice in treating and paying it's employee's the way they do so it is the choice that they made as well.
That is the point of the Colgan Air inquiry and perhaps what the post was getting at.
Management issues are the impetus for many things, but they are not a justification for violating the responsibilties placed on you by the FARs.
Frats,
Lee
06-19-2009, 12:30 PM
#5
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Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Definitely questionable, but since he was actually occupying the jumpseat on a redeye, I'm guessing this wasn't his first choice either. Maybe he started at noon but only made it on board on the last flight out of town (yours)?
Not a defense, of course. But it does serve to emphasize the inherent difficulty of long distance commutes, and why some pilots might push the envelope from time to time.
The correct course of action, of course, is to call in "fatigued" and face the consequences if he was called the next morning to fly and if he didn't feel up to it. If he didn't do that, then THAT would make him irresponsible.
Not a defense, of course. But it does serve to emphasize the inherent difficulty of long distance commutes, and why some pilots might push the envelope from time to time.
The correct course of action, of course, is to call in "fatigued" and face the consequences if he was called the next morning to fly and if he didn't feel up to it. If he didn't do that, then THAT would make him irresponsible.
06-19-2009, 12:35 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by LeeFXDWG
While I understand your point, that does not relieve the pilot in question of their duties under the FAR/AIM while exercising their ATP privledges.
That is the point of the Colgan Air inquiry and perhaps what the post was getting at.
Management issues are the impetus for many things, but they are not a justification for violating the responsibilties placed on you by the FARs.
Frats,
Lee
That is the point of the Colgan Air inquiry and perhaps what the post was getting at.
Management issues are the impetus for many things, but they are not a justification for violating the responsibilties placed on you by the FARs.
Frats,
Lee
Some commuters can't afford to live in base and can't afford to get hotels or a crashpad when they live outside of base.
Commuting is apart of the airline industry like it or not and both hold some of the blame.
06-19-2009, 12:42 PM
#7
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Position: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
Posts: 328
Is there an FAR that addresses pre-departure crew rest requirements? I'm not aware of one. This has been discussed a lot in my company because we have a company policy about a maximum duty day when jumpseating into a trip. But no regulation I'm aware of. Would like to know if there is one. Thanks.
06-19-2009, 12:44 PM
#8
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Posts: 129
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
I understand his point too but it is a double edged sword.
Some commuters can't afford to live in base and can't afford to get hotels or a crashpad when they live outside of base.
Commuting is apart of the airline industry like it or not and both hold some of the blame.
Some commuters can't afford to live in base and can't afford to get hotels or a crashpad when they live outside of base.
Commuting is apart of the airline industry like it or not and both hold some of the blame.
If you think the industry is that bad (and it may well be) their are other careers.
06-19-2009, 12:57 PM
#9
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 123
I think as the FAA reviews its rest requirements for pilots, that this type behavior will be reviewed.
At the airline I work for, "jumpseaters" are observer members of the crew....As the FAA scrutinizes aspects of crew rest, I believe they would be justified if they said that jumpseaters are de facto members of the crew, therefore they are not resting, and legal duty limits would apply to that crewmember.
If that would come to pass, the scenario of jumpseating on a red-eye to check in for duty on the morning of arrival would be problematic from a duty/rest perspective, and that responsibility would and should fall on the jumpseating crewmember, deservedly so, in my opinion.
At the airline I work for, "jumpseaters" are observer members of the crew....As the FAA scrutinizes aspects of crew rest, I believe they would be justified if they said that jumpseaters are de facto members of the crew, therefore they are not resting, and legal duty limits would apply to that crewmember.
If that would come to pass, the scenario of jumpseating on a red-eye to check in for duty on the morning of arrival would be problematic from a duty/rest perspective, and that responsibility would and should fall on the jumpseating crewmember, deservedly so, in my opinion.
06-19-2009, 01:16 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by floydbird
I think as the FAA reviews its rest requirements for pilots, that this type behavior will be reviewed.
At the airline I work for, "jumpseaters" are observer members of the crew....As the FAA scrutinizes aspects of crew rest, I believe they would be justified if they said that jumpseaters are de facto members of the crew, therefore they are not resting, and legal duty limits would apply to that crewmember.
If that would come to pass, the scenario of jumpseating on a red-eye to check in for duty on the morning of arrival would be problematic from a duty/rest perspective, and that responsibility would and should fall on the jumpseating crewmember, deservedly so, in my opinion.
At the airline I work for, "jumpseaters" are observer members of the crew....As the FAA scrutinizes aspects of crew rest, I believe they would be justified if they said that jumpseaters are de facto members of the crew, therefore they are not resting, and legal duty limits would apply to that crewmember.
If that would come to pass, the scenario of jumpseating on a red-eye to check in for duty on the morning of arrival would be problematic from a duty/rest perspective, and that responsibility would and should fall on the jumpseating crewmember, deservedly so, in my opinion.
Cockpit jumpseating is duty?
How about a JSer who gets a seat in back? Is that duty too?
There's no effective difference between a cabin JSer and a non-rev, right?
So nonreving is duty too.
A nonrev is basically sitting on his ass in a chair.
So how about that guy who lives in domicile...he might stay up late, sitting a chair watching a movie or reading a book...sounds just like duty too. What about a parent with an infant who gets up every 2-3 hours all night...every night for a year or so?
If you follow this to it's logical conclusion, all pilots need to report eight hours prior to departure and be physically confined to a bed in a dark, silent room. But I thought that was considered torture, which is no longer allowed for al queda? But OK for pilots???
The point is, where do you draw the line? It's a very hard line to draw, and it would be easy to trip over constitutional issues. Are you going to have rules for those who live out of domicile, that don't apply to those who live in domicile?
