Commuting and Irresponsibility
06-19-2009, 08:14 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Cactus - you bring up some good points here... I've commuted for over 10 years now but unfortunately I think that one day that option will be taken away from me because of a few who abuse the system, or maybe not necessarily abuse but who aren't careful enough... I'm afraid one day the FAA, the airlines and the public will unite and kill this option somehow...
Just look at Europe, very few airlines offer the option of jumpseating on their own company's aircraft... ID90, ID95s, etc. but no jumpseats unless it's a check ride, the FAA or training event...
I hope I'm wrong...
Just look at Europe, very few airlines offer the option of jumpseating on their own company's aircraft... ID90, ID95s, etc. but no jumpseats unless it's a check ride, the FAA or training event...
I hope I'm wrong...
06-19-2009, 08:29 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Here's a pipe dream(but not unreasonable)
If safety is really the goal our our gov't and our airlines, here's one possible solution, in a perfect world.
1) On day 1 of a trip, duty day is limited below the 16 hour duty day limitation, to say 10-12 hours, unless a crew is augmented by an IRO equivalent (who could even be a reserve pilot called in for duty if the day stretches out longer than originally scheduled). This will require a good duty rig in each airline's contract to ensure they still get paid a good wage for a day's work. In addition, it requires more reserves, thus more pilot staffing, which is also a good thing. The IRO requirement would allow guys flying long-haul to still commute in the morning of their trip since they will normally have plenty of time to rest before their flight leaves in the afternoon and they have an IRO on board anyways.
2) If an airline does not want to be limited to the 10-12 hour duty day on day 1, they must do two things:
a) Provide POSITIVE SPACE to the pilot on a flight of their choosing
which will allow for 8 hours of rest in base prior to their first flight. Time to and from the hotel should not count as rest time. (half of the fatigue from commuting is due to the stress created by sitting in the terminal wondering if you will get on board)
b) Provide a hotel that is free of charge for the pilot to rest prior to his/her flight.
A few notes:
- Airlines wouldn't bear this entire cost of these hotels. They would have the hotel cost for these rooms for commuters subsidized by giving tax breaks to the hotels which provide low cost room fares for these airlines.
- Airlines would bear the cost of getting their own pilots POSITIVE SPACE flights into their domicile. (They're paying it anyway when the pilots jumpseat, so really this is mostly a cost neutral thing anyway)
- If a pilot normally commutes from an airport where their airline does not serve, they will obviously not be given positive space on another airline. However, if they choose to do so, they must arrive at their hotel to provide a minimum of 8 hours rest. If they don't they must coordinate with scheduling regarding crew rest issues, which may be subject to disciplinary issues if it becomes habitual.
- Pilots that live within, say 2.5 hours driving distance of the airport can work out a deal with their specific airline where they would get paid a bonus of 2-3 hours pay per month (or a minimum of $250), whichever is greater to live closer to the domicile.
Yes, this will increase costs at airlines. But if the regulations are mandated by the FAA, the costs will increase across the board to all airlines. Those airlines with more commuters might get hit harder than those without, but also mandating a certain bonus to those that live within a certain driving distance will make the difference negligible.
Ticket prices will go up a few bucks a ticket, but at what price? Would you pay 5 or 10 extra bucks on a flight to ensure your pilots are given a mandated amount of rest? I know I would.
I'm sure there are some flaws to this idea, but we can modify it as necessary to make it better. What does everyone else think?
1) On day 1 of a trip, duty day is limited below the 16 hour duty day limitation, to say 10-12 hours, unless a crew is augmented by an IRO equivalent (who could even be a reserve pilot called in for duty if the day stretches out longer than originally scheduled). This will require a good duty rig in each airline's contract to ensure they still get paid a good wage for a day's work. In addition, it requires more reserves, thus more pilot staffing, which is also a good thing. The IRO requirement would allow guys flying long-haul to still commute in the morning of their trip since they will normally have plenty of time to rest before their flight leaves in the afternoon and they have an IRO on board anyways.
2) If an airline does not want to be limited to the 10-12 hour duty day on day 1, they must do two things:
a) Provide POSITIVE SPACE to the pilot on a flight of their choosing
which will allow for 8 hours of rest in base prior to their first flight. Time to and from the hotel should not count as rest time. (half of the fatigue from commuting is due to the stress created by sitting in the terminal wondering if you will get on board)
b) Provide a hotel that is free of charge for the pilot to rest prior to his/her flight.
A few notes:
- Airlines wouldn't bear this entire cost of these hotels. They would have the hotel cost for these rooms for commuters subsidized by giving tax breaks to the hotels which provide low cost room fares for these airlines.
- Airlines would bear the cost of getting their own pilots POSITIVE SPACE flights into their domicile. (They're paying it anyway when the pilots jumpseat, so really this is mostly a cost neutral thing anyway)
- If a pilot normally commutes from an airport where their airline does not serve, they will obviously not be given positive space on another airline. However, if they choose to do so, they must arrive at their hotel to provide a minimum of 8 hours rest. If they don't they must coordinate with scheduling regarding crew rest issues, which may be subject to disciplinary issues if it becomes habitual.
- Pilots that live within, say 2.5 hours driving distance of the airport can work out a deal with their specific airline where they would get paid a bonus of 2-3 hours pay per month (or a minimum of $250), whichever is greater to live closer to the domicile.
Yes, this will increase costs at airlines. But if the regulations are mandated by the FAA, the costs will increase across the board to all airlines. Those airlines with more commuters might get hit harder than those without, but also mandating a certain bonus to those that live within a certain driving distance will make the difference negligible.
Ticket prices will go up a few bucks a ticket, but at what price? Would you pay 5 or 10 extra bucks on a flight to ensure your pilots are given a mandated amount of rest? I know I would.
I'm sure there are some flaws to this idea, but we can modify it as necessary to make it better. What does everyone else think?
06-19-2009, 08:31 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
who knows maybe the guys who do this tried to jumpseat to base the day prior (responsible behavior), but failed due to high loads/wx/mx/etc and had no choice but to try again the day of work. maybe his crappy regional airline has a crappy commuting policy that doesnt even make sense. commuting always been tough for me because i live in a state where 98% of other pilots commute from but its gotten even tougher since airlines started cutting capacity. it is irresponsible for sure but if there was a crappy commuting policy/sick policy (such as in the case of certain regionals... namely MINE), and the company culture was unforgiving of fatigue calls then i can see how a guy would be forced to do this.
06-19-2009, 10:37 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
Originally Posted by Captain Bligh
Secondly, mandated crew rest rooms? At who's cost? So an airline with a higher percentage of commuters has a higher cost to house their pilots? Worse, if they hire a pilot or make it policy to only hire pilots that live locally and one day that pilot moves cross country, now the airline has to foot the bill for local housing?!!!
Well, at the airlines cost. Many airlines already have rooms full of lazyboys...how difficult would it be to put cots instead? Also, it'd be based on a percentage of pilots, not commuters, because it would benefit all pilots. If I were on reserve, or had a 4-5 hr break, a good nap would be great instead of just kinda dozing in a lazyboy. I did not say anything about housing pilots, I suggested a place to get rest.
06-19-2009, 11:01 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Anyone think that maybe the commute from LAX to IAD is a bit of a difficult commute and maybe the flights are full during the day and he might be getting more rest by showing up for the redeye rather than sitting around the airport all day trying to get to work then having to catch the redeye anyway? 
(I love run on sentences)
(I love run on sentences)
06-19-2009, 11:06 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
Well, at the airlines cost. Many airlines already have rooms full of lazyboys...how difficult would it be to put cots instead? Also, it'd be based on a percentage of pilots, not commuters, because it would benefit all pilots. If I were on reserve, or had a 4-5 hr break, a good nap would be great instead of just kinda dozing in a lazyboy. I did not say anything about housing pilots, I suggested a place to get rest.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
FWIW - Corporate gigs like BJS and NetJets Home base and buy their pilots round trip airfare to and from their home airport. They need to be within a 2 hour drive from major airline service - that's it.
06-20-2009, 12:50 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
Posts: 328
As I thought, there's no specific FAR that addresses pre-departure crew rest. The careless/reckless FAR would require litigation since it is specific to actual aircraft operation rather than what you did prior to the flight in question. But thanks for the FAR info.
06-20-2009, 04:48 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 786
Originally Posted by newKnow
Anyone think that maybe the commute from LAX to IAD is a bit of a difficult commute and maybe the flights are full during the day and he might be getting more rest by showing up for the redeye rather than sitting around the airport all day trying to get to work then having to catch the redeye anyway?
06-20-2009, 05:44 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 856
Originally Posted by cactusdog16
Last night I flew the redeye from LAX-IAD and had a jumpseater who had to ride in the cockpit. According to him, his duty day was to begin the day of our arrival at 0800 and not end until 2200. We arrived in Dulles at 0600. What is wrong with this picture? It is a commuting strategy that I have been seeing more and more the past couple years - commute on a redeye to fly the day of arrival. When did this become acceptable? Is it responsible? Is it professional?
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
To a man, every pilot I have seen employing this strategy has been a regional pilot. There may be some pilots at majors who do it as well, I just have not seen them. Maybe it has to do with the low pay and the high cost of living at some domiciles. Maybe it's a lack of mentoring - no one in a position of respect has suggested that it's not right to arrive for your duty day dead tired after having been up all night. When I have questioned my jumpseaters about it, it is usually met with a sheepish grin and some response about having an easy first day anyway.
Whatever the reason, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's responsible. I am not throwing stones, but maybe I am passing judgement. We all have our justifications for doing what we have to do. I am suggesting however that there really is no justification for intentionally putting yourself behind the fatigue eight-ball at the beginning of a trip. Lord knows there is more than ample opportunity to become fatigued during the normal course of a trip, especially at the regionals, without starting out exhausted.
I have commuted my whole career, first at the regionals, then at the majors. Sometimes I have commuted short distances, sometimes long distances. I have never considered jumpseating on a redeye to fly that very day to be a viable option. As professional pilots, we owe it to our passengers and fellow employees to be as well-rested as possible to begin a trip. I know the schedules are onerous. I know the pay is lower than it should be. I know the days off are minimal. But you made a choice to be a professional airline pilot and you must also make the choice to abide by all that it means to be one.
Home basing is the cure BTW. Go with it.
