FlyingViking

That would be common sense and it might not be appropriate on this site...

rickair7777

Common misconception here...121 duty/rest rules ONLY apply if there is still 121 flying to be done. The FAA does not care one tiny bit about your beauty rest after the 121 flying is finished.

16 hour day? Irrelevant if you are on your way home.

The only grey area here is compensatory rest...the wording of the regs makes it APPEAR as though you must be confined to a hotel room at an outstation and cannot even deadhead home. This wording was a mistake, and the FAA has acknowledged this and issued clarification that compensatory rest is ONLY required within 24 hours to prevent you from doing 121 duty beyond that point. If your 121 duty is done you are no concern of theirs and may deadhead, fly part 91, JS, etc.

floydbird

No, I said my airline specifically prohibits alcohol consumption by jumpseaters, for non-revver's---bottoms up!!


Fair enough, I thought I must have been misreading your post. I know we both agree on the pitfalls of irresponsible alcohol use and our profession. (BTW you cite .04 BAC, but there also is that 8 hour nugget regardless of what the BAC is, so one wouldn't be legal with any alcohol consumption inside the 8 regardless of BAC---but now we're getting into the weeds).

Anyway, why then do you always decline?


The FAA requires the jumpseat. Some unions may be successful getting a 2nd jumpseat installed, but neither would be there but for the Fed's requirement.

And I do agree that J/S is a professional courtesy...But I know I'm not alone in the belief that courtesy is granted with the implicit understanding that by requesting the J/S, you are making yourself available to assist the Cap/FO, and cabin crew, if called on...and that implicit understanding of availability is no small factor in why we, pilots, are granted those extra seating possibilities when the Fed's aren't using them. That professional courtesy extended us should be reciprocated by maintaining the availablity to perform at a high level. Availability is really the only price we pay for the seat.


False dilemma---I'll take door #3 please. I am not going to get into a back and forth about drinking and flying and whether a pilot under the influence is better than ? etc. etc.....

I responded earlier in this thread this way....we have an outstandingly unique priviledge that allows us to fly free, nearly anywhere. There are a few among us that test the outer barriers of propriety in the use of the priviledge. As accidents/incidents pile up, where questionable use of our jumpseating priviledges can be cited as contributing factors in the fatigue of flight crewmembers, those in power will use these instances as justification to reign in our priviledges.

When that happens, none of us will have any problem citing the specific FAR re: J/S and duty day---it'll be there...black and white--I don't think any of us want that.

What I'm saying is, let's tighten ourselves up, lets encourage those few among us not to endanger what we have by acting irresponsibly--even if those actions aren't specifically illegal. I'm sure on this we can agree?

kronan

Floyd, great post.

I always decline because I don't want to open up that can of worms. But, I have had a few folks tell me they like getting the FC seat for the free booze. I don't think its the smartest thing in the world-but, can't find anything in the FARs that specifcally prohibits it. (The DUTY time was an example-since Jumping is considered duty by some posters since you sign as an ACM on a 121 flight for alcohol purposes, then you are also exposed to legal rest issues as well)

And, good to point out the 8 hrs is always there for planned duty.

I thought I'd search the FARs and see what they had to say about the Jumpseat, and it is specifically mentioned in 2 FARs. The following is a clipping from one of them

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

"Passenger means every person aboard a covered flight segment regardless of whether he or she paid for the transportation, had a reservation, or occupied a seat, except the crew. For the purposes of this part, passenger includes, but is not limited to, a revenue and non-revenue passenger, a person holding a confirmed reservation, a standby or walkup, a person rerouted from another flight or airline, an infant held upon a person's lap and a person occupying a jump seat. Airline personnel who are on board but not working on that particular flight segment would be considered passengers for the purpose of this part."


And this is the definition of a crewmember;
Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time.


AGAIN, IMO, in the event of an emergency call for pilots-I'd offer myself up if I thought I could be of assistance even if I'd had a drink. Wouldn't hide it from the crew, I'd simply say I've had a beer but I'm pretty sure I can get the radios or read the checklist for ya. May not know the standard calls for you, but, can damn sure monitor the airpseed and altitude. Probably wouldn't even have any trouble figuring out how to run the gear/flaps.

And, IMO, 121.557 authorizes the PIC to do whatever it takes to get the plane safely on the ground

SaltyDog

Cactusdog16,
I think he is exactly on target. Need to evaluate the reasons that led to the cause. Perhaps said JSer did make some hard choices before you ran into them and kindly gave the JS. Did you inquire how long the crewmember had tried to commute from LAX-IAD? Did you ask what kind of family issues they were dealing with that day? Did you get their seniority number relative to their fleet/domicile? You know, like 3 on -2 off with family emergencies on a commute can be a challenge. If your spouse is making more coin and refusing to hop around the country as your airline management keeps changing management plans that move your seat all around, they are stuck commuting with horrible schedules. Being junior for a few years in a down economy is very challenging faced with these realities.
I did it for 3 years in early 90's. It is a different world being paid McDonald wages like I was paid at COEX. Was the most junior F/O in base for 30 months. I don't expect empathy. I expect brains. You and I are as much the fault for this dilemma. Can't claim a "not my fault".
Let me pointedly ask, Why do you commute? You seem empathic you are a responsible commuter. Good. Do you think others in the industry saw that as a viable benefit as well? Where did they learn that from? Yep, folks like you and me. We were the example. As major line pilots, we set the bar.
Give you an example that really taught this military pilot that unions could go really off tangent and not realize the detrimental effect of "not my problem" in negotiations. Randy Babbit was trying to sell ALPA instead of IACP. As a new bub, I listened to him respond to a COEX Capt what his views were on Pay For Training. His amazing response "Not our problem". If COEX charges new hires and a union attitude is not to write contractual protections for a future union pilot, then all was not lost on management. They figure pilots are really only self serving prima donnas. It wasn't lost on management either. I certainly understood why Ornstein then piped up one day that they should charge us for recurrent training since other employees paid for their training. The logic never escaped me. The unions need to back the profession, just not their own particular interests. Leadership! All unions, regardless of lineage has that duty. If the legacies had drawn the line, the managements would not have driven the wedges so deep. It is a viscious circle. I agree with NWA757 though, if the unions stood behind the profession, we would be better off.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

I too thought it was specifically prohibited since a jumpseater is considered an additional crew member (unless using a 'buddy pass' then you're a non-rev).

Even if someone gets a seat in the back if you used a jumpseat pass you are still a crew member; all airlines use different terms for it, I've heard Observing Crew Member, Additional Crew Member, etc. but still a crew member...

I didn't think "I always turn it down" was an option, I thought it was mandatory not to drink while jumspeating whether upfront or in the back...

Am I wrong in my assumption?

Spongebob

Not quite..you forgot to factor in that you are in a place at the end of your forty days that is so expensive to fly you home out of that it's cheaper to pay you overtime until the next flight rolls in (days later) and DH you to a new location that has a cheaper ticket home. Or this conversation wth skeds:

pilot: "I'm at the end of my trip and you haven't sent my ticket informaton yet"

skeds: "Oh, we have here that you wanted to work some of your days off"

pilot: "uh, no. Send me home before I get divorced."

skeds: "ok...<mad tapping on a computer>...the earliest I can get you a ticket home is in two days"

Been there, have the scars.

Spongebob

joepilot

My airlines FOM specifically prohibits jumpseaters consuming alchohol. The flight attendants are supposed to know and enforce this rule.

I once had a Fed who was giving me an enroute check drink onboard. He stayed up in the cockpit for the first few hours, then I asked if he wanted to stay the entire time, or sit in first class till we were close to landing. He went downstairs to first class and (I found out after the trip was over) had a cocktail and some wine with dinner, then watched a movie and went to sleep. After breakfast he came back upstairs and came into the cockpit about an hour out from landing.

If I had known that he had been drinking I believe that I would have had to deny him access to the cockpit. On the other hand, it would have been more than eight hours since he had anything to drink, so maybe this would have made him legal?

Joe

Sniper

Part 243 is the FAR for "Passenger Manifest", and only defines a "passenger" for the purposes of Part 243, not all the FARs. If we followed Section 14, Part 243 to determine if a jumpseater was a member of the crew, we'd have to conclude that even a flightdeck jumpseater is not a member of the crew, no?

For ALL international flights operated into the US where a person has flight deck access (like your own carrier, 'kronan', though there's no alcohol catered, so it is not @ issue), a jumpseater must be listed on the "crew manifest", not the passenger manifest. As a cabin 'jumpseater', you are usually pre-cleared through CASS (b/c the agent doesn't know better, they shouldn't do this unless you will need flightdeck access). Are you now a member of the crew if you have flightdeck access?

You are not on duty when you jumpseat, but you do have a higher obligation to the flight than a passenger, or even non-working airline personnel onboard. Just exactly what is the obligation . . . that is not explicitly stated . . . and that is a GOOD thing. Talk to your jumpseat chair for details (especially you, 'kronan'. RO is extremely knowledgeable on this issue).

As for those of you who question the difference b/t a non-rev and a cabin jumpseater:

- A non-rev has no obligation to duty. Drink away.
- A jumpseater (pilot jumpseater, to differentiate from FA jumpseater) is often accounted for on the W&B at a "crew" weight, even if they sit in the cabin, and always listed on the flight release under "crew" (ACM, etc) if they have potential access to the 'flight deck' (the FAA definition, dealing with security barriers, which is not for public discussion). In short, it is VERY likely that consumption of alcohol is not allowed for a pilot jumpseater.

Why are pilots allowed to jumpseat - if there was no obligation to assist, anyone could do satisfy the requirement, not just those trained in evacuation procedures, flying skills, aeronautical knowledge, and all facets of airline crew leadership. Jumpseating, from the standpoint of the FAA, allows the addition of a highly trained and skilled crewmember to the team: an extra set of eyes on the flightdeck, an extra set of muscle in a physical passenger disruption, an extra voice and set of hands during an emergency evacuation. To look @ jumpseating as only the ability to commute is to demean the role of a jumpseater to no more than a passenger. Talk to your jumpseat chairman for specifics and details.

It disgusts me that a pilot would catch a LAX-IAD redeye arriving @ 0600 to duty on @ 0800 for a 14 hour day, especially after the Colgan accident. What disgusts me even more is that so many here try to rationalize it (could have missed other earlier flights beforehand, could have been on reserve, could be b/c he has no $, could be b/c 'major' pilots don't understand and support 'regional' issues, could be he slept all day, could be he sleeps well on planes, etc.). Yeah, it could have been any of these things - but it most certainly is a pilot who has no intention to call fatigued, and is instead going to pull the same kind of commute that the Colgan FO did.

The time has come to accept accountability and responsibility here, not try to justify the unjustifiable. If we, as pilots, can not recognize when something is being done that is grossly wrong and call it what it is on an anonymous internet forum, we must have someone else, like Congress and the FAA, put limits on our behavior to protect us from ourselves.

Defense of a red-eye commute into a 14 hour day; jumpseating for commuting and trying to snag a premium seat; drinking alcohol as a jumpseater - seriously? Safety and professionalism is not a priority anymore, clearly. This whole thread is just proof that pilots not only deserve what's coming, but require it.

iaflyer

What worked well for me in this case was, "I'm going to the airport and buying a ticket on the company card. I imagine you can get a better deal online but I'm going home one way or another." Amazingly, they always managed to find me a ticket.

At my old company, there was no ability for the company to hold you out longer than you wanted.