newKnow

I think that "lock out window" would be very difficult to implement and the airlines as well as the pilots would fight it. Plus, it does nothing to stop a commuter from writing a pass for the same flight.

dckozak

First off, the FAR's are not your friend when it comes to avoiding fatigue. Even if you live in domicile, woke shortly before going to work, you still could be fatigued depending on a host of factors neither you, your employer nor the gov'm could or should foresee. First off, 16 hours on duty. How assine is that Ask your 9 to 5 neighbor how productive he'd be at the end of a 9 to 1 (as in 1 am!!) work day. How awake are you?? Yet this is the allowable limit to most of our duty days, and even if your not scheduled anywhere near this limit, you could be flown to that limit on any given day, without prior notice.

Is there a solution to this?? Well yes and no. Short legal duty days clearly would lesson the likelihood of fatigue, but not all duty days are created equal. For most of us the sweet spot of our useful awake day starts shortly after we wake in our home time zone after a normal night of "good" sleep (7 to 9 hours preferable). Ideally we would have a short drive to ops, check in (say at 1000) and end (no later than) 12 hours later. So right off the bat, even with the best of start times, a 16 hour (potential) duty day would have us beat at the end of the day, let alone a real early start (before 0600) or late to very late start. The FAR's do not take into account the time of day we start work. Some (union) contracts do, but those pilots had to trade something to get/give their employers/custumers/selves a fighting chance at not finishing their duty day fatigued. An earlier post alluded to a shorter duty day at the start of a duty sequence. Another smart idea that won't happen because it would cost (your industry) money. For most of us we'll be better rested (whether a commuter or not) after we've gotten away from home and are receiving rest and transportation by the company prior to our next duty. A thoughtful adjustment to the duty time FAR's would not only adjust the legal limit to max duty day dependent on the time of day it started, but also would have the first duty day of any sequence be shorter than subsequent ones.

Commuting is by definition a admission that we don't like/can't afford the domicile our employer has us working out of. Most of us would love to drive a short distance to work, avoid a lengthy fly/drive to start our day and the subsequent long slog home, all on our time Not all commutes are equal and some are clearly reckless either by there length, complexity or when the pilot chooses to get to domicile prior to duty. We all make a choice when we accept employment as to where we live vs where the job starts. That said, many airlines open and close crew bases without regard to the people that have uprooted thier lives to live in these cities only to find that some beancounter has decided they can save the company a couple of nickels moving the pilot domicile to another location.

With regard to commuting, we don't need further over site/regulation to complicate our lives. As someone else pointed out on these threads, we are the determinate as to when and how we avoid fatigue (when it comes to getting to work) Redefining when we must be in domicile prior to duty will not, in its self, solve the rest issues related to fatigue before duty. The FAA and industry needs to accept the fact that pilots do get tired after long grueling day of work. Not all can be blamed on how the pilot commutes to work. We individually must be responsible for how we get to work and how we rest pre and post commute. If we don't and incidents like Colgan continue, you can bet we'll have restrictions placed of how we get to work. And you can count on the fact that the 16 hour duty day will still be there long after your obliged to be ready in domicile.

ewrbasedpilot

As a matter of fact it IS duty. You're stating that you are a "qualified crewmember" and therefore, can be used as such. Just try jumpseating with a seat in back, have an alcoholic beverage *(if you're in civilian attire), and see what happens if they cockpit crew needs your services up front. It's a fine line.........so be careful. You could find yourself in a lot of trouble.

rickair7777

I know all that.

But JSing is not currently 121 duty for rest purposes. If that changes, and a cabin JSer is running his duty clock, how is that different from a nonrev sitting in the cabin as far as rest, duty, and fatigue goes? I see no practical difference...

cactusdog16

This is my point exactly. It takes some individual personal responsibility to arrive at work as well-rested as possible. Of course you can't always control what happens the day before you report to work (the crying baby, etc) but you can control how you attempt to get to work. The redeye to work the morning of arrival is not a good option.

Furthermore, my purpose was not to skewer the individual pilot who commuted LAX-IAD in the middle of the night, as his is not an isolated case. I see this strategy even more often on the LAX-ORD and SFO-ORD routes. In talking to these pilots numerous times, it is a strategy that they employ on a regular basis - not just as a last-ditch effort to get to work after missing numerous flights.

I'm the last person who would like to see the government regulating our commutes, but if we as professional pilots don't make some better choices, that may be exactly what happens.

Safety is paramount. You never know when a challenging day will come. Give yourself the best chance to deal with it.

nwa757

It's interesting (and predictable) to see the major pilots on here trying to figure out why the regional pilots can't afford to move to base or pay for a hotel room on poverty $20,000 wages.

I guess it's all part of being in a union where some members make 8 to 10 times more than others.... and some have 4 to 6 more days off per month than others.

Hey, but at least all these cheap regionals aka outsourced airlines are helping the bottom line for mainline contract negotiations. $$$ Right?

If you guys really care about this that much, talk to your union about maybe improving working conditions at the regionals. The Mesa or TSA or Colgan MECs can't get much traction if the United MEC isn't standing behind them! I understand it would be easy to be disconnected, but if you put yourself in the shoes of that redeye commuter who is working for nothing in debt up to his eyeballs, you might understand a little more. Hopefully.

floydbird

Yes

Yes

Wrong. Pass riding--have a glass of wine and enjoy.

No, see above.

Perhaps, but he's not on duty.

We all have an obligation to our families, co-workers, and public, regardless of what drama each of our lives holds, to show up well-rested and fit for duty.

The slippery slope...no, you need to be well-rested and fit for duty. I think if you are jumpseating, you are on duty, therefore not resting. How many pilots would accept a trip assignment from the company that started with a jumpseat redeye across the country immediately followed by a "normal" workday? I don't think many would. Yet there are pilots (starting w/the subject pilot of the original post) that have no problem doing it on their own.



I draw the line where actions of a small number of pilots threaten our extraordinary priviledge of commuting great distances to work. Every time the commuting behavior of a pilot can be cited as a contributing factor to an accident/incident, that behavior will be used as ammunition justify the inhibition our priviledges.

My original point is, that to me, jumpseating is clearly duty, and that it will be very easy for the FAA--unless we ALL get our acts together---to use existing regulations to force us to count jumpseating as duty time.

Mason32

If deadheading is not considered rest, then why should jumpseating be considered rest. There is a 24 hour lookback period where you need to find acceptable rest. How can you be jumpseating in cross country, show up and fly a long duty day (14 hours was the example) and still meet the rest requirement....

solinator

Maybe it's my own ignorance on the subject, but don't airline companies usually have an arrangement worked out with a local hotel? I would think they would have a building, similar to a small, basic hotel to host pilots, since the companies are unwilling to help them relocate...?

newKnow

I think he is talking about "on duty" as in regards to the company you work for, FAR duty regulations, and/or pay purposes.

Look at it from the ther end of the rainbow. After you fly a trip, let's say with a 16 hour duty day, is it legal for you to jumpseat home?