Save this profession by doing the following..
10-02-2009 | 08:17 AM
#21
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Agreed....Part 121 should not be the only experience. I figure as long as you have time in a professional operation, you are qualified. My only point is PIC requirements induce the chase the upgrade problem. This is why people are willing to fly for low wages. If it didn't matter if you came from one company or another, people would not be so willing to go to the bottom feeders, which in turn the bottom feeders would need to raise pay, to fill their seats. Supply and Demand.
10-02-2009 | 09:05 AM
#22
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Agreed....Part 121 should not be the only experience. I figure as long as you have time in a professional operation, you are qualified. My only point is PIC requirements induce the chase the upgrade problem. This is why people are willing to fly for low wages. If it didn't matter if you came from one company or another, people would not be so willing to go to the bottom feeders, which in turn the bottom feeders would need to raise pay, to fill their seats. Supply and Demand.
10-02-2009 | 09:40 AM
#23
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From: sitting at computer keyboard
10-02-2009 | 03:46 PM
#25
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From: Hot tub for now
In most cases this only applies to first year F/O pay at mainline. After that the hourly rate quickly raises to above the average regional CPT pay (around 5 yrs.)
All these ideas are meant to create an ideal pilot working system. But we fail to address one simple idea, cheap labor. Management teams have worked tirelessly to find ways around their current labor contracts. The solution came in the form on contracting out work to other companies. Until the legal system rebalances to represent both parties equally, the unions will be powerless to stop the work loss.
All these ideas are meant to create an ideal pilot working system. But we fail to address one simple idea, cheap labor. Management teams have worked tirelessly to find ways around their current labor contracts. The solution came in the form on contracting out work to other companies. Until the legal system rebalances to represent both parties equally, the unions will be powerless to stop the work loss.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s_airways.html
And look at year 16 for a PSA Captain. $94/hr CRJ
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ional/psa.html
Mainline F/O's can make more money at the Regional Level. (If they are made Captains)
Combine the fleets and you will see that mainline pilots will make more $$$ and the industry will be safer.
I will be taking a pay cut if this was the case.
Look at a 5 year Captain at PSA vs 5 year F/O at mainline:
One the 190 it would be a $23 pay cut and the airbus $1 raise.
You can increase safety and make it a win win for all pilots.
Plus we could get rid of Piedmonts/PSA management/dispatch/scheduling because Tempe does it all anyway. Think of how much $$$ that can save.
Wouldn't that be in the best intrest of passengers and share holders?
Last edited by seafeye; 10-02-2009 at 03:48 PM. Reason: addition
10-02-2009 | 09:03 PM
#26
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Reintroducing the airline simulator evaluation at larger carriers might mitigate some of the issues of late. ie: improper stall recoveries, poor judgement. I'm aware of a few instances where pilots who have no business in this industry were allowed to continue for years thereby endangering the flying public (and you and I). These same people succesfully interviewed at legacies by virtue of their PIC experience and subsequently experienced great difficulty during their training. The fact that someone happens to be a regional captain does not make them eminently qualified for career progression. Unfortunately, economics dictate the current state of affairs. I'm sure every current scooter trash 
PIC driver will disagree... Just an observation from a currently furloughed bystander.
PIC driver will disagree... Just an observation from a currently furloughed bystander.
10-03-2009 | 09:00 AM
#27
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Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Legacy FO
The airline simulator profiles will not change anything. Of the companies that do them, I've not heard of any of them doing stall recoveries nonetheless, abnormals and emergencies.
Iroinically, sim profiles can be practiced and as such, do you really get to evaluate a persons actual flying skills and judgement in a sim profile that includes a takeoff, some instrument work, holding, and an approach to landing? No, you don't. Sure, you will catch the people who are faking it and have no business being in a cockpit. However, you also stand to lose the very good pilots who get nervous and make a stupid mistake out of nervousness. The sim profiles and the time spent evalutating isn't enough to capture someone's true flying experience and judgement.
Iroinically, sim profiles can be practiced and as such, do you really get to evaluate a persons actual flying skills and judgement in a sim profile that includes a takeoff, some instrument work, holding, and an approach to landing? No, you don't. Sure, you will catch the people who are faking it and have no business being in a cockpit. However, you also stand to lose the very good pilots who get nervous and make a stupid mistake out of nervousness. The sim profiles and the time spent evalutating isn't enough to capture someone's true flying experience and judgement.
10-03-2009 | 10:20 AM
#28
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From: 737 F/O
I can see his logic. The logic is i.e., "make it easier to get us young, junior regional F/O's to the majors and then we wont have to be RJ captains". Of course, that wont solve the problem because there are only enough major airline seats to go around (about 1 for every 50 applicants in GOOD times, let alone bad), so there will always be a pipline of pilots languishing behind to fill in those RJ slots.
Unfortunately, economics has taken control and the cancer has spread way too far now. Treatment and cure were 12-15 years ago, but the patients scoffed, snorted and refused to admit a disease was in progress among them.
Now many of the younger, newer pilots at the regionals are slowly coming to the conclusion how bleak the future will be for major airline opportunites and desperation is taking hold.
I think the next suggestion of a "plan" to solve this problem will be, "please, please just hire me and I'll be your friend and fight this scurge with you !!!".
Businessmen (which is what airline management is) are guided by economics and profit, not be emotional pleading from one employee to other employees. That has never changed anything and never will.
The final train wreck seems inevitable and the only question is where will YOU be sitting during the collision ?
Unfortunately, economics has taken control and the cancer has spread way too far now. Treatment and cure were 12-15 years ago, but the patients scoffed, snorted and refused to admit a disease was in progress among them.
Now many of the younger, newer pilots at the regionals are slowly coming to the conclusion how bleak the future will be for major airline opportunites and desperation is taking hold.
I think the next suggestion of a "plan" to solve this problem will be, "please, please just hire me and I'll be your friend and fight this scurge with you !!!".
Businessmen (which is what airline management is) are guided by economics and profit, not be emotional pleading from one employee to other employees. That has never changed anything and never will.
The final train wreck seems inevitable and the only question is where will YOU be sitting during the collision ?
Seem like all we have on here now is a bunch of whiny, crybaby, regional F/O's who are finding out that the recruiters and advertisements were all false.
There is no shortcut for experience......plain and simple. Until you have several thousand hours of 121 PIC can you make the statement that it's not needed. I highly doubt CALTEX will feel the same once he sits in the left seat for a few years.
10-03-2009 | 12:45 PM
#29
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Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Sofa Stress Tester
Actually look at year 16 (Top) for US Airways F/O's. $85/hr A320
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s_airways.html
And look at year 16 for a PSA Captain. $94/hr CRJ
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ional/psa.html
Mainline F/O's can make more money at the Regional Level. (If they are made Captains)
Combine the fleets and you will see that mainline pilots will make more $$$ and the industry will be safer.
I will be taking a pay cut if this was the case.
Look at a 5 year Captain at PSA vs 5 year F/O at mainline:
One the 190 it would be a $23 pay cut and the airbus $1 raise.
You can increase safety and make it a win win for all pilots.
Plus we could get rid of Piedmonts/PSA management/dispatch/scheduling because Tempe does it all anyway. Think of how much $$$ that can save.
Wouldn't that be in the best intrest of passengers and share holders?
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s_airways.html
And look at year 16 for a PSA Captain. $94/hr CRJ
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ional/psa.html
Mainline F/O's can make more money at the Regional Level. (If they are made Captains)
Combine the fleets and you will see that mainline pilots will make more $$$ and the industry will be safer.
I will be taking a pay cut if this was the case.
Look at a 5 year Captain at PSA vs 5 year F/O at mainline:
One the 190 it would be a $23 pay cut and the airbus $1 raise.
You can increase safety and make it a win win for all pilots.
Plus we could get rid of Piedmonts/PSA management/dispatch/scheduling because Tempe does it all anyway. Think of how much $$$ that can save.
Wouldn't that be in the best intrest of passengers and share holders?
10-03-2009 | 02:38 PM
#30
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,203
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From: Hot tub for now
Looking at the pay rates you've made some assumptions. Assuming the individual at USA with 16 yrs seniority could only hold F/O on the 37 then yes you would be correct. And certainly at this time this could be the situation. But usually you upgrade around the 5 to 10 year mark at the majors, that would mean a pay cut if you had to upgrade into an RJ with current RJ pay rates.
The colgan accident showed us what happens when pilots are paid crap to just sit there.
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