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10-05-2009, 08:13 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Sofa Stress Tester
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
How long did it take southwest to catch up in terms of pay? How long for jetblue or airtran?
How much time should we give them? If you don't want to give them a time frame, how big can they get before they should be caught up?
Or do we just not hold these pilots accountable at all?
How much time should we give them? If you don't want to give them a time frame, how big can they get before they should be caught up?
Or do we just not hold these pilots accountable at all?
Startups are a gamble, they offer the chance to grow with the company with hopefully a modest paycheck, or they go under. Then, if they survive and as they take root their labor groups can negotiate better packages. Also I refer to startups as in Virgin America or Jetblue, a stand alone company offering their own product. Both companies I've heard are good to work for, but don't pay top dollar.
10-05-2009, 08:16 AM
#62
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
How long did it take southwest to catch up in terms of pay? How long for jetblue or airtran?
How much time should we give them? If you don't want to give them a time frame, how big can they get before they should be caught up?
Or do we just not hold these pilots accountable at all?
How much time should we give them? If you don't want to give them a time frame, how big can they get before they should be caught up?
Or do we just not hold these pilots accountable at all?
PIPE
10-05-2009, 08:48 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Ziggy
So in your opinion there should never be anymore startups, right? No one has the right to start a company unless they offer absolute top dollar. I've never heard of a startup either in or out of aviation able to do that.
Startups are a gamble, they offer the chance to grow with the company with hopefully a modest paycheck, or they go under. Then, if they survive and as they take root their labor groups can negotiate better packages. Also I refer to startups as in Virgin America or Jetblue, a stand alone company offering their own product. Both companies I've heard are good to work for, but don't pay top dollar.
Startups are a gamble, they offer the chance to grow with the company with hopefully a modest paycheck, or they go under. Then, if they survive and as they take root their labor groups can negotiate better packages. Also I refer to startups as in Virgin America or Jetblue, a stand alone company offering their own product. Both companies I've heard are good to work for, but don't pay top dollar.
So why did you not answer any of the questions? Are you nervous that you would actually have to hold pilots accountable?
10-05-2009, 09:28 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Admiral's club lounge
Posts: 631
Originally Posted by The Juice
Sling gear...yes.
But should your first 121 PIC experience come when you are sitting left seat for a mainline heavy? Experience in the left seat at a regional is an important experience.
But should your first 121 PIC experience come when you are sitting left seat for a mainline heavy? Experience in the left seat at a regional is an important experience.
10-05-2009, 03:51 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Sofa Stress Tester
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
Where did I say that?
So why did you not answer any of the questions? Are you nervous that you would actually have to hold pilots accountable?
So why did you not answer any of the questions? Are you nervous that you would actually have to hold pilots accountable?
1. I don't care how long it took SWA to gain their current contract, but good for them for raising the bar.
2. Time is a dynamic component, it takes however long it takes.
3. I don't think you or I are in a position to judge others. We can only set standards for ourselves and live by them.
Last edited by Ziggy; 10-05-2009 at 03:54 PM. Reason: grammer
10-05-2009, 05:47 PM
#67
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by CALTEX
1. Get rid of PIC requirement for Mainline job. Replace with 5 year 121 experience. After 5 years, you are more than qualified to sling gear at the majors. This will solve all the problems of racing to the bottom to get that coveted PIC time. How many guys take crappy jobs with low pay, terrible work rules, sadistic management, and etc., just to get PIC? Who would take a job at a bottom feeder if all they need is years and not PIC?
2. Mainline guys stop giving up SCOPE to save pay, jobs or to get a shiny jet. The regional jet should have been mainline flying. Any plane that can leave the "region" should have been mainline. The jobs would have come back, the pay would be better than it is now, and the company is going to get the jet anyway. How many DC-3's are still flying?
3. Be willing to sacrifice. Do not pick up OT when staffing is low, or worse, guys on the street. Do not sell out your junior guys! Yes, you have been there, done that, but that doesn't mean it is someone else's turn to eat the sh.t sandwich. Ten years ago the senior guys sold SCOPE to save their A$$es and now it is the very thing that is killing the profession.
I'm sure you can all add something, but these are the three things that I see need to be addressed.
2. Mainline guys stop giving up SCOPE to save pay, jobs or to get a shiny jet. The regional jet should have been mainline flying. Any plane that can leave the "region" should have been mainline. The jobs would have come back, the pay would be better than it is now, and the company is going to get the jet anyway. How many DC-3's are still flying?
3. Be willing to sacrifice. Do not pick up OT when staffing is low, or worse, guys on the street. Do not sell out your junior guys! Yes, you have been there, done that, but that doesn't mean it is someone else's turn to eat the sh.t sandwich. Ten years ago the senior guys sold SCOPE to save their A$$es and now it is the very thing that is killing the profession.
I'm sure you can all add something, but these are the three things that I see need to be addressed.
You are trying to close the door after the horse's have all run away...
Mainline job? There aren't any. They aren't hiring. They have retirements just as they always have been, but they are also shrinking because they know all the growth will be at "regional" and "nationals"... doesn't matter if they use 20 years experience, or 10,000 hours flight time... there has to be a job for them to hire, and the proliferation of people willing to fly transport category jets for peanuts has ruled out any possibility of there being mainline growth. If there is a Mass retirement when the age 60 folks hit 65, there may be some hiring, but nowhere near enough for all the ME generation to get "their" seat.
10-06-2009, 05:54 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Ziggy
Ok, I'll answer.
1. I don't care how long it took SWA to gain their current contract, but good for them for raising the bar.
2. Time is a dynamic component, it takes however long it takes.
3. I don't think you or I are in a position to judge others. We can only set standards for ourselves and live by them.
1. I don't care how long it took SWA to gain their current contract, but good for them for raising the bar.
2. Time is a dynamic component, it takes however long it takes.
3. I don't think you or I are in a position to judge others. We can only set standards for ourselves and live by them.
So you don't hold anyone accountable? Am I reading you correctly?
We are all in positions to judge others. It's forming an opinion. Yours is that you don't care.
10-06-2009, 08:14 AM
#69
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Mason32
You are trying to close the door after the horse's have all run away...
Mainline job? There aren't any. They aren't hiring. They have retirements just as they always have been, but they are also shrinking because they know all the growth will be at "regional" and "nationals"... doesn't matter if they use 20 years experience, or 10,000 hours flight time... there has to be a job for them to hire, and the proliferation of people willing to fly transport category jets for peanuts has ruled out any possibility of there being mainline growth. If there is a Mass retirement when the age 60 folks hit 65, there may be some hiring, but nowhere near enough for all the ME generation to get "their" seat.
Mainline job? There aren't any. They aren't hiring. They have retirements just as they always have been, but they are also shrinking because they know all the growth will be at "regional" and "nationals"... doesn't matter if they use 20 years experience, or 10,000 hours flight time... there has to be a job for them to hire, and the proliferation of people willing to fly transport category jets for peanuts has ruled out any possibility of there being mainline growth. If there is a Mass retirement when the age 60 folks hit 65, there may be some hiring, but nowhere near enough for all the ME generation to get "their" seat.
Carl
10-06-2009, 08:41 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Sofa Stress Tester
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
Did southwest actually raise the bar? I don't think that's a factual statement.
So you don't hold anyone accountable? Am I reading you correctly?
We are all in positions to judge others. It's forming an opinion. Yours is that you don't care.
So you don't hold anyone accountable? Am I reading you correctly?
We are all in positions to judge others. It's forming an opinion. Yours is that you don't care.
I now look at companies/jobs to find which would offer me the best QOL with pay.
SWA has set itself apart from the rest of the industry. They've chosen to take care of their employees. In the beginning they weren't able to offer top dollar, and in your view they still may not. But they do offer other benefits, happy work environent, employee competition programs, and even other family oriented activities.
I'm not trying to waive the SWA flag, but they have earned some respect. Given the opportunity whose to say that Jetblue, or Airtran can't do the same.
I've looked at the history of this profession, and hopefully learned the right lessons. Now all I can do is continue in this path, continue to learn and hopefully be given the chance to pass this along to the next generation. But we are fighting a battle against the pilot mills and their propaganda. This has all but removed the ever vanishing mentoring institution.
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